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WA: Push on or Pull Out?

Old 11th Feb 2021, 05:52
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Just be WELL prepared when you enter the office of the CP or Training Department to discuss your decision making.

Just remember they probably won’t side with you. I can’t say I’ve seen many in my time enter and exit those discussions, any better off.
What makes you think that it wasn't the CP flying? As someone else pointed out, the PIC had spent 4 days in the office then 2 days flying.
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Old 11th Feb 2021, 06:12
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
What makes you think that it wasn't the CP flying? As someone else pointed out, the PIC had spent 4 days in the office then 2 days flying.
That would make the tea and biccie session a lot more simple!
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Old 11th Feb 2021, 06:15
  #43 (permalink)  
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Engine out should a CP lead by example and just give away the flight at the moment and get her down if suitable places permit?

I really think that sets a bad precedent for others following the ‘push on’ mentality, which might put others on the spot when the decision is to be made, is it ok to cause mass commercial disruption and just get her down, yes always the safest option. Or should I I push on cause the boss did.

Incoming....

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Old 11th Feb 2021, 07:01
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wheels_down View Post
Engine out should a CP lead by example and just give away the flight at the moment and get her down if suitable places permit?

I really think that sets a bad precedent for others following the ‘push on’ mentality, which might put others on the spot when the decision is to be made, is it ok to cause mass commercial disruption and just get her down, yes always the safest option. Or should I I push on cause the boss did.

Incoming....
Nice stir, but you have made the assumption that "just putting it down in GEL" was the safest option in this case. That - as this thread shows - is a matter of opinion and an absolute line ball call when all the competing issues are considered and weighted accordingly.
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Old 12th Feb 2021, 01:16
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Hmm 40 minutes to CP? How so? At DC 3 speeds maybe
I thought I'd read somewhere they were well below the OEI best speed, so I was thinking 3.5 miles a minute. As for restarting the engine that just failed for no reason, not sure about the Dutch oven but Airbus say to "consider relight" so it's not a given

As for the ATSB now suggesting that we must always be within gliding distance once an engine quits (if that is the implication of the report), we may as well ground all twins right now
Agreed
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Old 12th Feb 2021, 01:19
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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What makes you think that it wasn't the CP flying? As someone else pointed out, the PIC had spent 4 days in the office then 2 days flying.
Could be the fact he hasn't flown for 4 years, I don't know
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Old 12th Feb 2021, 01:49
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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ADBF-are you implying that the PIC was a former non-flying CP from a QF Group regional airline?
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Old 12th Feb 2021, 02:06
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=airdualbleedfault;10988906]I thought I'd read somewhere they were well below the OEI best speed, so I was thinking 3.5 miles a minute.
/QUOTE]

In fact they elected to NOT reduce speed to 'green dot' but held 250KIAS at a lower altitude, as they had this performance without resorting to max continuous thrust. ATSB wrongly state that this action contributed to an increased duration of the flight. At a TAS of at least 300 knots versus probably another 10 minutes climbing at about 180-200 KTAS - que?
Now I see a local tinpot flying magazine has headlined the incident, and not favourably, merely regurgitating the ATSB report. A story about how they got to use the aeroplane again would be better, though not as sensational.
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Old 12th Feb 2021, 03:08
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Where's GT when you need him?
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Old 12th Feb 2021, 08:14
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Why is this such a major issue in Australia?
Everything is a major issue in Australia Brah,

Pop on over to the lockdown threads, that'll open your eyes.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 22:08
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
Are you aware of the different type of emergency responses that a Mayday and Pan have?
Absolutely! and it goes a bit further than you might think. Under the precedence set in maritime law, In an Emergency, the Commander may override any rule, regulation or procedure in the interests of safety, you might find that or something to that effect written in your operations manual somewhere near the preamble. The commander is still accountable for that action, meaning the action must be reasonable as determined by a jury of peers.
If you do not declare an emergency, which is what a Mayday is, what would be your excuse for going anywhere with an engine shutdown. You could argue that an emergency is implied as a consequence of that shutdown, but I wouldn't count on it if the opening argument is, "but it's only an abnormal."
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Old 16th Feb 2021, 00:28
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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ADBF-are you implying that the PIC was a former non-flying CP from a QF Group regional airline?
Nope, the VARA CP hasn't flown for years, including the day in question.

Machevelli, my bad I misread still don't believe it was the best decision and it would seem I'm not alone
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Old 16th Feb 2021, 00:33
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
Absolutely! and it goes a bit further than you might think. Under the precedence set in maritime law, In an Emergency, the Commander may override any rule, regulation or procedure in the interests of safety, you might find that or something to that effect written in your operations manual somewhere near the preamble. The commander is still accountable for that action, meaning the action must be reasonable as determined by a jury of peers.
If you do not declare an emergency, which is what a Mayday is, what would be your excuse for going anywhere with an engine shutdown. You could argue that an emergency is implied as a consequence of that shutdown, but I wouldn't count on it if the opening argument is, "but it's only an abnormal."
Good excuse would be go home leg of a long multi day trip.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 00:18
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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A few years back now, when 777's were in favour with SQ, their SOP was to continue onto SIN should they suffer an EFATO departing PER due to the Engineering Support at home base.

Well done to the VARA Crew. Correct decision made
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 00:41
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Agent_86 View Post
A few years back now, when 777's were in favour with SQ, their SOP was to continue onto SIN should they suffer an EFATO departing PER due to the Engineering Support at home base.
.........
How long did that take? Up to 7 hours?
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 00:42
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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PER - SIN can be operated non ETOPS with a slight route alteration which adds a few minutes to the flight time.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 02:33
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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still don't believe it was the best decision and it would seem I'm not alone
Fully understand the argument given the conditions prevailing at the time of the incident, but what options would have been available posed in my previous.
what might have been done differently had the take off Geraldton been made in the minimum permitted weather criteria, here I assume the landing minima at Geraldton is above the take off minima.

Continue to Perth would seem to be the only option in that case
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 05:16
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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A few years back now, when 777's were in favour with SQ, their SOP was to continue onto SIN should they suffer an EFATO departing PER due to the Engineering Support at home base.
And CASA approved that document?? I find that very hard to believe.

Generally speaking if you have a engine failure in a twin it's land at the nearest airport unless you have a good reason not to which is what the ATSB is getting at in their report.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 07:48
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Agent_86 View Post
A few years back now, when 777's were in favour with SQ, their SOP was to continue onto SIN should they suffer an EFATO departing PER due to the Engineering Support at home base.
hahah, nice try mate
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 09:59
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
Generally speaking if you have a engine failure in a twin it's land at the nearest airport unless you have a good reason not to which is what the ATSB is getting at in their report.
Nearest airport? You sure about that? Are we talking a Baron or a 777 here? Because I certainly wouldn’t be landing at the “nearest” if continuing to a much better alternative was an option.
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