ABC: Pilot Shortage ‘flipped around’
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,541
Originally Posted by havick
True to some degree but, someone with an unrelated degree to flying (specialised) with no experience in the field will find it difficult to go back to that field if they lose their flying job.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 2,767
Originally Posted by havick
True to some degree but, someone with an unrelated degree to flying (specialised) with no experience in the field will find it difficult to go back to that field if they lose their flying job.
I think you both nailed the problem. From the time I started flying in the mid 1960s the conventional wisdom has been get a degree in another field as a fall-back in case the aviation thing goes sour.
While I'd never argue against more education, I just think there are some practical problems with that advice if trying to apply it:
Does the field actually require more than an undergraduate degree to be successful ?
Did you have actual working experience in the field ? If so, how much...how long ago ?
[In my legacy salad days, I used to fly with captains who said that if they weren't making $XXX,XXX flying an airplane, they'd make that much doing something else because they had a degree in Fancy Engineering from Big Tech University. They never engineered anything and the last engineering problem they solved involved a slide rule]
Does the field require continuing education credits to remain a professional qualification ?
Do you have contacts in the field ? [networking is everything]
There are probably more issues with the conventional wisdom. It's a tough spot to be in. My feeble Plan B centered on the loss of medical certification. So, how to turn flying experience into non-flying aviation employment. I have no idea if my plan would've worked but am sure it wouldn't in the current mess.
It is possible to "retool" one's self but requires a herculean effort. For example, I looked into being an X-ray technician. Reasonable tuition cost, likely employment but two years of full time school...FULL...TIME. And if you want to run a CAT scan or MRI for higher pay, it requires experience and further schooling.
It can be done...just not by me.
Last edited by bafanguy; 3rd Aug 2020 at 22:20.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 1,104
I can assure you 'another degree' doesn't help. I did a law degree years ago but haven't done any work in that field for 14 years and apart from a cv filler it hasn't opened any doors to me at the moment as I am not law current in terms of employment. It qualifies me for all the entry level jobs to start building a new career but I would almost be better off going and becoming an electrician apprentice, more bang for my buck. As above, to be really useful I really would need to have 10 years legal experience on my c.v. as well but that would have delayed my flying career by 10 years. If I was starting again I would have done something in computing and maintained a sideline as a freelance web designer or similar.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,353
Ground staff and cabin crew can easily transition into other customer service areas, for pilots it's not so easy as our skills are highly specialised and narrowly focused. The attributes such as bearing responsibility and making decisions under pressure can help in other areas but they aren't hard paper qualifications. Once you've been out of any field for a long time it becomes hard to get back in, working practices change, new technology develops and new laws are introduced. Show a motor mechanic who last worked on cars in the late 1990s, a brand new vehicle today and he'd be hard pressed to do an oil change.
The ability to sell is a highly useful skill as it never goes out of date, is in demand in most sectors and offers high earning potential.
Nurses have been in such high demand that at times, health authorities have offered to employ and retrain those with previous experience who have been out of the profession for a few years.
The usual fall backs of having a Responsible Server of Alcohol certificate, a taxi driver authorisation or a security guard licence can at least put food on the table between jobs
The ability to sell is a highly useful skill as it never goes out of date, is in demand in most sectors and offers high earning potential.
Nurses have been in such high demand that at times, health authorities have offered to employ and retrain those with previous experience who have been out of the profession for a few years.
The usual fall backs of having a Responsible Server of Alcohol certificate, a taxi driver authorisation or a security guard licence can at least put food on the table between jobs
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 954
Oh My!!
Today, I am a retiree and I don't even think about working agen, But there was a time when I thought I might, just to give myself something to do while I work it all out.
This is how it went.
Previous skills and quals for which I have many but not used in the previous 5 years, no longer relevant.
Between the time of noticing a job ad that I thought that might be ok and pressing the send button, about 500 down the list in the inbox.(Pre Covid)
Don't expect a reply from more than 1 in 20 applications at all and those that do up to 6 weeks if you followed up.(Pre Covid)
Over 50, don't expect to be taken seriously.
New Australians who haven't mastered the English language are more desirable than you
As it was at the time 457 visa holders, especially in govt jobs more desirable than an Australian born qualified person new to the field.
Today, I am a retiree and I don't even think about working agen, But there was a time when I thought I might, just to give myself something to do while I work it all out.
This is how it went.
Previous skills and quals for which I have many but not used in the previous 5 years, no longer relevant.
Between the time of noticing a job ad that I thought that might be ok and pressing the send button, about 500 down the list in the inbox.(Pre Covid)
Don't expect a reply from more than 1 in 20 applications at all and those that do up to 6 weeks if you followed up.(Pre Covid)
Over 50, don't expect to be taken seriously.
New Australians who haven't mastered the English language are more desirable than you
As it was at the time 457 visa holders, especially in govt jobs more desirable than an Australian born qualified person new to the field.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: TAS
Posts: 10
Fixer or Fokker
Originally Posted by f1yhigh
Honest question and I mean no malice by this, who regrets becoming a pilot? and if you could do it all over again, what careers would you get into?
Many would regret investing so much on their aviation careers.
An industry with no moral code or ethics, where you can reach the top with an IQ of 97.
A career where you can buy a job but need to be comfortable around soulless snakes.
We had the choice to be Fixers or Fokkers and most chose the later.
To answer your question f1yhigh, I would have got into a career focused on fixing.
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Mexico City
Posts: 547
The most recession, 9/11 and CoVID proof qualification I have is a truck licence (Heavy rigid first then semi trailer).
Got the heavy rigid truck licence in mid 90's when the local Tafe did it for $300. I know they are much more expensive now (in Sydney you can get the licence for $1000 atm).
Truck driving isn't glamorous nor will you make a fortune but if you look on Seek right now, you will still see a ton of truck driving jobs. No digging holes or stacking shelves. Air conditioned comfort and listen to music all day.
My main point being is the training won't take 3 years like a degree (usually just 1 or 2 days) and you don't really need to have any sort of currency. It's also a lot cheaper than Uni.
Got the heavy rigid truck licence in mid 90's when the local Tafe did it for $300. I know they are much more expensive now (in Sydney you can get the licence for $1000 atm).
Truck driving isn't glamorous nor will you make a fortune but if you look on Seek right now, you will still see a ton of truck driving jobs. No digging holes or stacking shelves. Air conditioned comfort and listen to music all day.
My main point being is the training won't take 3 years like a degree (usually just 1 or 2 days) and you don't really need to have any sort of currency. It's also a lot cheaper than Uni.
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 954
Yeah Right! I hold an MC, Class 3 Double B as it was in the day, late 80's even used it for a couple of years an filled a logbook. offered my services during the drought carting hay for free as a community service trying to help. When I told them I haven't driven one since the early 90's they laughed. The days of just driving the truck are long gone.
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 121
Truck Driving is the just the same as aviation. Unless you have current experience in higher weights you are just battling it out with all the shonks. Sure there are plenty of jobs for people who have spent 4-5 years driving but you aren't just going to walk up with a license, no experience and start driving HR multi combination.
At the end of the day despite all these know alls on here who think a pilot will waltz into any industry on the planet, reality is unless you are qualified, and have current experience you arent really doing anything just because you are a pilot.
Basically you would have had to other qualifications, been working part time in another industry, whilst simultaneously somehow being an airline pilot working unstable shift work. Sure if you have no life or wife and kids it could be done, but I don't see how you could otherwise.
And those who have experience from other industries tend to be career FOs as they started to late in aviation. Very Very few manage to do both.
At the end of the day despite all these know alls on here who think a pilot will waltz into any industry on the planet, reality is unless you are qualified, and have current experience you arent really doing anything just because you are a pilot.
Basically you would have had to other qualifications, been working part time in another industry, whilst simultaneously somehow being an airline pilot working unstable shift work. Sure if you have no life or wife and kids it could be done, but I don't see how you could otherwise.
And those who have experience from other industries tend to be career FOs as they started to late in aviation. Very Very few manage to do both.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,541
Originally Posted by non_state_actor
Basically you would have had to other qualifications, been working part time in another industry, whilst simultaneously somehow being an airline pilot working unstable shift work. Sure if you have no life or wife and kids it could be done, but I don't see how you could otherwise.
I was always told to get a degree or a trade in a field outside of aviation because one day if there was a downturn having that second qualification would mean I could just walk into a well paid alternate job straight away, but that’s not the case.
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Mexico City
Posts: 547
Originally Posted by non_state_actor
Truck Driving is the just the same as aviation. Unless you have current experience in higher weights you are just battling it out with all the shonks. Sure there are plenty of jobs for people who have spent 4-5 years driving but you aren't just going to walk up with a license, no experience and start driving HR multi combination.
At the end of the day despite all these know alls on here who think a pilot will waltz into any industry on the planet, reality is unless you are qualified, and have current experience you arent really doing anything just because you are a pilot.
Basically you would have had to other qualifications, been working part time in another industry, whilst simultaneously somehow being an airline pilot working unstable shift work. Sure if you have no life or wife and kids it could be done, but I don't see how you could otherwise.
And those who have experience from other industries tend to be career FOs as they started to late in aviation. Very Very few manage to do both.
At the end of the day despite all these know alls on here who think a pilot will waltz into any industry on the planet, reality is unless you are qualified, and have current experience you arent really doing anything just because you are a pilot.
Basically you would have had to other qualifications, been working part time in another industry, whilst simultaneously somehow being an airline pilot working unstable shift work. Sure if you have no life or wife and kids it could be done, but I don't see how you could otherwise.
And those who have experience from other industries tend to be career FOs as they started to late in aviation. Very Very few manage to do both.
Driving a truck is like driving a car. Stick to commenting on things you know something about.
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 954
Driving a Truck is like Driving a Car
Originally Posted by Climb150
Current driving a truck? Never heard of that before. Also there is no such thing as a HR combination. I had been away from driving a truck for 5 years and got hired on straight away when AV8 went under.
Driving a truck is like driving a car. Stick to commenting on things you know something about.
Driving a truck is like driving a car. Stick to commenting on things you know something about.
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 121
Current driving a truck? Never heard of that before. Also there is no such thing as a HR combination. I had been away from driving a truck for 5 years and got hired on straight away when AV8 went under.
Last edited by non_state_actor; 9th Aug 2020 at 05:53.
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: East Coast
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by dr dre
I was always told to get a degree or a trade in a field outside of aviation because one day if there was a downturn having that second qualification would mean I could just walk into a well paid alternate job straight away, but that’s not the case.
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 954
Originally Posted by plotplot
Some others are even easier like gyprocking, painting, landscaping etc. Most tradies will know a lot of other tradies who'll know a lot of other tradies. A couple of phone calls and I can be on a site by next week if not tomorrow.
My guess is, I think you're in for a rude shock.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: All at sea
Posts: 1,887
Originally Posted by Xeptu
Well here's an opportunity for the acid test. Whether you need a job right now or not, how about you make those calls and report back what they say.
My guess is, I think you're in for a rude shock.
My guess is, I think you're in for a rude shock.
An alternative would be to go fruit picking with the Pacific Islanders that the farmers are crying out for because our career dole bludgers can't get off their fat arses to do anything useful. and have shown themselves to be un-trainable.
The money might be crap, but think of the positives - working in the sun will improve your fitness beyond anything attainable in the gym and those Islanders could show you a good time with a whole fresh outlook on life.
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: East Coast
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by Mach E Avelli
I tend to agree - unless you can demonstrate skill, no one is likely to want to train you on the job knowing you don't really want to be there and will bugger off back to aviation at the first opportunity.
An alternative would be to go fruit picking with the Pacific Islanders that the farmers are crying out for because our career dole bludgers can't get off their fat arses to do anything useful. and have shown themselves to be un-trainable.
The money might be crap, but think of the positives - working in the sun will improve your fitness beyond anything attainable in the gym and those Islanders could show you a good time with a whole fresh outlook on life.
An alternative would be to go fruit picking with the Pacific Islanders that the farmers are crying out for because our career dole bludgers can't get off their fat arses to do anything useful. and have shown themselves to be un-trainable.
The money might be crap, but think of the positives - working in the sun will improve your fitness beyond anything attainable in the gym and those Islanders could show you a good time with a whole fresh outlook on life.
And I've already made those calls pre-emptively. Job waiting for me no worries. Construction is yet to be drastically affected. At least where I have connections.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: All at sea
Posts: 1,887
Plotter you are fortunate if you have a saleable skill. Some pilots (myself included) are not all that good at working for a living. That's why I took up flying in the first place - I tried work and did not like it.
But picking mangoes on an all expenses paid holiday in the tropics; now if I was 20 years younger, needed money and unemployed, I would do that in preference to joining a queue at Centrelink. Dealing with that lot must be quite depressing.
But picking mangoes on an all expenses paid holiday in the tropics; now if I was 20 years younger, needed money and unemployed, I would do that in preference to joining a queue at Centrelink. Dealing with that lot must be quite depressing.
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: East Coast
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by Mach E Avelli
Plotter you are fortunate if you have a saleable skill. Some pilots (myself included) are not all that good at working for a living. That's why I took up flying in the first place - I tried work and did not like it.
But picking mangoes on an all expenses paid holiday in the tropics; now if I was 20 years younger, needed money and unemployed, I would do that in preference to joining a queue at Centrelink. Dealing with that lot must be quite depressing.
But picking mangoes on an all expenses paid holiday in the tropics; now if I was 20 years younger, needed money and unemployed, I would do that in preference to joining a queue at Centrelink. Dealing with that lot must be quite depressing.
