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The future of VARA?

Old 31st Jul 2020, 01:52
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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​​​​​​"It is important to note that the 'guarantee' we're talking about here is not a financial guarantee - there's no implied cross guaranteeing of debts and liabilities"



  1. VAH Newco 2 is a guarantor of the following notes (Notes) issued by VAH: Hughes Affidavit at [20(d)]:

    (i) VAH Unlisted 2018 Notes: AUD$150,000,000 (face value) of 8.25% unsecured Fixed Rate Notes issued by VAH on 30 May 2018 and due for repayment on 30 May 2023;
  2. (ii) VAH Unlisted 2019 Notes: AUD$250,000,000 (face value) of 8.075% unsecured Fixed Rate Notes issued by VAH on 5 March 2019 and due for repayment on 5 March 2024; and
  3. (iii) USD 2016 Senior Notes: USD$350,000,000 (face value) of 7.875% Senior Notes issued by VAH and due for repayment on 15 October 2021.
  4. VAH Newco 2 is currently in default of the obligations in the Note Deed Poll dated 17 May 2018 (which governs the VAH Unlisted 2018 Notes and the VAH Unlisted 2019 Notes) and the Indenture dated 17 October 2016 (which governs the USD 2016 Senior Notes) because of the appointment of administrators to the Virgin Companies: Hughes Affidavit at [20(d)].


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Old 31st Jul 2020, 01:53
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.fedcourt.gov.au/__data/a...-3072020-2.pdf

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Old 31st Jul 2020, 02:18
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blackout View Post
​​​​​​"It is important to note that the 'guarantee' we're talking about here is not a financial guarantee - there's no implied cross guaranteeing of debts and liabilities"

  1. VAH Newco 2 is a guarantor of the following notes (Notes) issued by VAH: Hughes Affidavit at [20(d)]:

    (i) VAH Unlisted 2018 Notes: AUD$150,000,000 (face value) of 8.25% unsecured Fixed Rate Notes issued by VAH on 30 May 2018 and due for repayment on 30 May 2023;
  2. (ii) VAH Unlisted 2019 Notes: AUD$250,000,000 (face value) of 8.075% unsecured Fixed Rate Notes issued by VAH on 5 March 2019 and due for repayment on 5 March 2024; and
  3. (iii) USD 2016 Senior Notes: USD$350,000,000 (face value) of 7.875% Senior Notes issued by VAH and due for repayment on 15 October 2021.
  4. VAH Newco 2 is currently in default of the obligations in the Note Deed Poll dated 17 May 2018 (which governs the VAH Unlisted 2018 Notes and the VAH Unlisted 2019 Notes) and the Indenture dated 17 October 2016 (which governs the USD 2016 Senior Notes) because of the appointment of administrators to the Virgin Companies: Hughes Affidavit at [20(d)].

I was answering S28's query regarding Deeds of Cross-Guarantee - a DOCG is not a financial guarantee.

The fact that Newco 2 is the guarantor for three tranches of unsecured notes issued by VAH is not in dispute.
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 02:52
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MickG0105 View Post
I was answering S28's query regarding Deeds of Cross-Guarantee - a DOCG is not a financial guarantee.

The fact that Newco 2 is the guarantor for three tranches of unsecured notes issued by VAH is not in dispute.
It is a 'form' of Financial guarantee. Just not a 'conventional' Guarantee & Indemnity.
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 07:21
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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If you want to get into the nuances of Deeds of Cross Guarantee - https://www.keypointlaw.com.au/keynotes/guarantee/
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 11:00
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Giday Mr Blackout & MickG-

For, the sake of 'Clarity' (and 'probably' should have referenced the source material earlier and how the question/view formed for myself- my BAD, but do not have- the time...!!!!).

THE "POINT" being- the Submission/s of 1x 'Richard Hughes' in his Capacity as 'Liquidator'-
of each of VAH Newco No.2 Pty Ltd (in liquidation) and VB Investco Pty Ltd (in liquidation)
Link to said 'Submission' to the Court here: https://www.fedcourt.gov.au/__data/a...on-2872020.pdf

Extract (Bolding):

#14. While it was initially thought that the Companies were dormant entities with no liabilities, Mr Hughes now understands that:

(a) VB Investco and VAH Newco 2 is each a party to a deed of cross-guarantee dated 18 June 2007 (DOCG), including with certain other companies in the Virgin Group, which provides that upon the winding up of an entity to the DOCG (either in insolvency or as a creditor voluntary winding up), each other entity to the DOCG is liable for its debts: Hughes Affidavit at [19(c)]and [20(c)]; Exhibit RJH-1 at Tabs 14 and 15; and

(b) VAH Newco 2 is a guarantor of the following notes (Notes) issued by VAH: Hughes Affidavit at [20(d)]......
And on it goes....

Does, 'that' make sense- "each other entity to the DOCG is liable for its debts".......????, and 'that' therefore- for me, triggered 'the Solvency' question.

Then- 'when' does that Deed of Cross-Guarantee expire... vis, the 'process' and resultant Test of Solvency..???

Many thanks- and All the Best
rgds
S28- BE

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Old 31st Jul 2020, 13:24
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Section28- BE View Post
Giday Mr Blackout & MickG-

For, the sake of 'Clarity' (and 'probably' should have referenced the source material earlier and how the question/view formed for myself- my BAD, but do not have- the time...!!!!).

THE "POINT" being- the Submission/s of 1x 'Richard Hughes' in his Capacity as 'Liquidator'-

Link to said 'Submission' to the Court here: https://www.fedcourt.gov.au/__data/a...on-2872020.pdf

Extract (Bolding):



And on it goes....

Does, 'that' make sense- "each other entity to the DOCG is liable for its debts".......????, and 'that' therefore- for me, triggered 'the Solvency' question.

Then- 'when' does that Deed of Cross-Guarantee expire... vis, the 'process' and resultant Test of Solvency..???

Many thanks- and All the Best
rgds
S28- BE
The DOCG issue is essentially moot - we've known about the value of the issued notes since the get-go. The only thing that some of the notes being guaranteed by Newco 2 does is change Newco 2's status from solvent to insolvent. That in turn means that Newco 2 could not be voluntarily liquidated as a solvent business as had been originally contemplated.

Based on the information that Hughes uncovered Newco 2 and Investco need to be treated as insolvent. Hughes's recommendation was that they both be placed under administration the same as the other 39 Virgin entities. That's what his application sought and it's what Middleton J ordered in response to that application (see an earlier post by Blackout with the link to the order).

This little diversion is now essentially done - there are now 41 entities under administration, and the caravan rolls on.
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 14:34
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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"6. Pursuant to section 482(1) of the Corporations Act, until further order, the winding up of each of the Companies be stayed."

I'm not sure what this means in reality, but I agree mostly with what Mick said in previous post... The 'winding up' has ceased for now!
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 22:56
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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So.......................For those of us who don't understand the semantics of cross guarantees etc etc etc - Is VARA profitable or not ??
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 23:49
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Con Catenator View Post
So.......................For those of us who don't understand the semantics of cross guarantees etc etc etc - Is VARA profitable or not ??
No idea - there's just not enough publicly available data to say one way or the other. Any assessment would be a guess. The fact that the FIFO stuff continued to run while everything else was on the ground can be viewed instructively but only in the context that that's just a part of VARA.
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 00:00
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blackout View Post
"6. Pursuant to section 482(1) of the Corporations Act, until further order, the winding up of each of the Companies be stayed."

I'm not sure what this means in reality ...
Based on early advice to the administrator (that we now know to have been incorrect) Newco 2 was slated for voluntary liquidation and the relevant notices were issued around that (https://publishednotices.asic.gov.au...8-bae91de6c93b).

That winding up now needs to be formally halted (stayed), hence the 482(1) order. The business's status needs to be formally amended from 'In liquidation' to 'Administrators Appointed'.
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 02:37
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MickG0105 View Post
Based on early advice to the administrator (that we now know to have been incorrect) Newco 2 was slated for voluntary liquidation and the relevant notices were issued around that (https://publishednotices.asic.gov.au...8-bae91de6c93b).

That winding up now needs to be formally halted (stayed), hence the 482(1) order. The business's status needs to be formally amended from 'In liquidation' to 'Administrators Appointed'.
I underlined 'until further order' as I do not know what this could mean in reality. We were not privy to the Hearing as of yet, so everything is/has been speculation in my opinion.

Im glad we can all be involved in this discussion regarding VA. Trying to find some facts with what has been going on shows passion about the company, whether we are right or wrong or simply asking questions, its important to note that everyone in this industry is going through some heavy times.

Have a good Weekend

Black- OUT
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 09:56
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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The whole sorry mess is just a shonky shell game with a net value of -$6.8 billion. Wind it all up and get the employees some entitlement. Virgin is a dead duck limping. Don’t let these crooked administrators take any more fees for doing essentially nothing.
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 10:55
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by zanthrus View Post
The whole sorry mess is just a shonky shell game with a net value of -$6.8 billion. Wind it all up and get the employees some entitlement. Virgin is a dead duck limping. Don’t let these crooked administrators take any more fees for doing essentially nothing.
good one ********
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Old 3rd Aug 2020, 07:29
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone here know how many A320s VARA has in its fleet?
I count the following and they’re all active flying over the next few days.
VNB
VNF
VNJ
VNP
YUD
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Old 3rd Aug 2020, 08:30
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by whisperjet146 View Post
Does anyone here know how many A320s VARA has in its fleet?
I count the following and they’re all active flying over the next few days.
VNB
VNF
VNJ
VNP
YUD
FNP is also one of theirs. It's been parked up since May. Interestingly or otherwise, the only A320 that VARA isn't flying is the one that they own outright; the other five are leased.
​​​​​​
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Old 3rd Aug 2020, 08:51
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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FNP is currently up for sale and withdrawn from service.
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Old 3rd Aug 2020, 09:16
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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VH- Foxtrot November Papa......

Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
FNP is currently up for sale and withdrawn from service.
ex SkyWest according to this (be, the start of the Type, way back then...??) : VH-FNP Airbus A320-231

And, 3x AOC's (remain...) in the Group: https://www.casa.gov.au/search_aoc/V...nal%20Airlines

rgds
S28- BE


Last edited by Section28- BE; 3rd Aug 2020 at 10:01. Reason: At, 'A' wild guess- 'work' required....????
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Old 3rd Aug 2020, 22:14
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Section28- BE View Post
ex SkyWest according to this (be, the start of the Type, way back then...??) : VH-FNP Airbus A320-231

And, 3x AOC's (remain...) in the Group: https://www.casa.gov.au/search_aoc/V...nal%20Airlines

rgds
S28- BE
The Tiger AOC is also still current - https://www.casa.gov.au/search_aoc/Tiger%20Airways

Interesting to note that the Tiger AOC was re-issued in June and is current till 2023. All the other Virgin AOCs (domestic, international and regional) were re-issued in May.
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Old 3rd Aug 2020, 22:51
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
FNP is currently up for sale and withdrawn from service.
Is it listed online anywhere?
She’s had quite an operational history.
Given what alliance just paid for their E190 deal it mustn’t be worth much.

That guy in NZ, Mike Pero is yet to announce which carrier he’s partnered with on Christchurch - Rarotonga to operate charter flights.
Could’ve been some good extra revenue work for Virgin group.
Especially given they have operational experience on that route with VAINZ only a couple of years ago.
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