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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 25th Aug 2020, 13:53
  #1621 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sydney
Age: 40
Posts: 78
No I don't it's just what the document says, that's all (or my reading of it & sure ain't an English Major)

Why the head in the sand , she'll be right approach , how does that assist people make rational decisions

Nothing like this has occurred before , there are no precedents & if more senior guys are trying to suggest they have seen it all
before - well I just wouldn't agree with that. Seen what ?? , the GFC (we didn't get one here), 2001 (a blip), early 1990s recession (yes was a bit
grim but just nothing compared to this)

We all wish this event didn't happen but it has, we all wish hundreds of Virgin & ANZ didn't have their employment finished but that has happened

We all wish hundreds of people hadn't died in Victoria but they have. I actually saw a post where someone on this section stated the Victorians are getting exactly what they deserve
- how nice , what class - positively gleeful at the events in Vic

There are no easy answers & no easy choices chancing CR is a double edged sword

If the plan is to return after CR there are very significant downsides to consider
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 14:34
  #1622 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 567
Telfer. The recession of the early 90's started as a result of Black Wednesday in 87, it was a doozy. I agree with you that this will be much worse, but it hasn't started yet. Covid is the trigger, but the real impact comes (the trough) about 18 months later, so around September 21, if we have defeated covid and the state borders are open again, that will mark the recovery point. Airlines and Tourism are the very last to recover. So as an minimum around end 23 before some sort of normality is restored. My main concern is that historically we were expecting a recession every 10 years thereabouts, so we were sort of prepared, or at least braced for it. Today people have no clue what to expect, our kids think they are entitled within a throw away society. I'm really concerned when those two things meet.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 15:19
  #1623 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 124
Originally Posted by Keg View Post
The LHEA is a national award and overseen by Fairwork Australia. They’re the ones that rule on all matters relating to it.
Please, Keg! (et al, including Angryrat)

I know you are not a lawyer, and you don’t pretend to be one.

I know you have never served time on the AIPA Committee, and you have never pretended to have done so.

So, I get that (industrially) you have no idea what you are talking about. But a lot of people listen to you, because you are a voice of reason, and you don’t hide behind a pseudonym.

So, please get your language and your facts right, because people do listen to you. From a certain perspective, that assigns a certain responsibility to you, whether you like it or not.

The LHEA is not a national award. There is a national award for pilots, you can find it here. And if that was what you worked under, you would arguably be better able to provide for your family by holding a “STOP/GO” sign on the M2.

Qantas Long Haul pilots do not work under the Award, they work under the Qantas Airways Limited (Long Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2020.

I guess the word “work” is a little redundant, but they are still “employed” under the same instrument.

I know some management people. And I know they chuckle every time they see “bush lawyers” use the word “award” in forums, because it illustrates how little said employees know about industrial relations. That has and still does include many COM members.

The industry uses the terms “LHEA”, “EBA”, “Agreement”, or worse, “contract”. Never the term “Award”, because it actually means something completely different.

Regards, Fred

Last edited by Derfred; 25th Aug 2020 at 15:33.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 15:25
  #1624 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 567
Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
Qantas Long Haul pilots do not work under the Award, they work under the Qantas Airways Limited (Long Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2020
That's actually uncalled for and you don't "work" for anyone anymore.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 18:31
  #1625 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 124
Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
That's actually uncalled for and you don't "work" for anyone anymore.
Completely agree. If you had read further to my next paragraph, you would have read:
I guess the word “work” is a little redundant, but they are still “employed” under the same instrument.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 21:26
  #1626 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 475
Tell me, how much does the 3 months notice cost the company when you’re on stand down? I’ll save you the thinking time, It’s nothing except the leave you accrue in that time.
Well that’s not how Qantas see it and they are the ones writing the cheque.

The VR payments for stood down LH pilots included a 3 month notice period and it was to be paid in full.

That is the precedent. Your opinion is just your opinion.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 22:18
  #1627 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: HKG
Posts: 278
Originally Posted by machtuk View Post
I hope everyone remembers our corrupt Govt leaders especially our head grub Dan when this is all over (if ever!)
There will be a reckoning one day for these grubs and it won't be pretty!
Dont stress Machtuk.

Dan Andrews means the same to me as what Bob Hawke was to the ‘89ers.

Never forget.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 22:48
  #1628 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Australia
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by Beer Baron View Post
Well that’s not how Qantas see it and they are the ones writing the cheque.

The VR payments for stood down LH pilots included a 3 month notice period and it was to be paid in full.

That is the precedent. Your opinion is just your opinion.
Its not a precedent, only a previous CR can be a precedent for future CR. VR is very different to CR, they were trying to get people to volunteer with VR. With CR the employee has no choice so the company may be less likely to make payments that they don’t have to.

My statement wasn’t an opinion, it’s a statement of fact. Under the agreement they can give notice or payment in lieu of notice. The minimum cost to the company under current stand down provisions is to let the employee serve out the notice period on stand down. They may choose not to do it, but that is entirely up to the company.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 00:42
  #1629 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 567
Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
I guess the word “work” is a little redundant, but they are still “employed” under the same instrument.
I don't suppose it matters now, AJ's going to outsource all that. Tino is setting up the labour hire/training facility and rumour has it there's a few ex-virgin guys looking to change brands.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 01:11
  #1630 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Nz
Posts: 415
Dan Andrews means the same to me as what Bob Hawke was to the ‘89ers.

Never forget.
I understand but I’d like to make a suggestion if you’re open to considering it;
Long term, that idea/attitude/mindset of ‘never forget’ will bring you slowly down. It will change your personality in a way that your loved ones won’t like and won’t achieve anything good. In the immediate future maybe indulge it a bit but be aware of when others are moving on and check that you are too, don’t surround yourself with others that also ‘never forget’. If you hold onto it long enough you become a bitter rambling irrelevant old fool. Seen it happen to an immediate family member who got into the habit of looking backwards instead of forward. So my suggestion is ‘ make sure that ‘ never forget’ doesn’t become a permanent mindset.’
All the best.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 01:15
  #1631 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 567
Sorta flies in the face of ANZAC Day does it not
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 01:22
  #1632 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 140
Ahh, ANZAC Day isn’t about “never forgetting” who the bad guys were... It’s remembering the lost lives and how incredibly futile war is.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 01:39
  #1633 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: HKG
Posts: 278
Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post
So my suggestion is ‘ make sure that ‘ never forget’ doesn’t become a permanent mindset.’
All the best.
Good advice- I mean that genuinely. Thank you, all the best to you too mate.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 02:34
  #1634 (permalink)  
Keg

Nunc est bibendum
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,365
You’re right Derfred. My apologies. I should have used the word ‘agreement’ when responding to whoever it was that was talking about the the ‘industrial court’.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 03:25
  #1635 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Nz
Posts: 415
Thanks Green.Dot
I checked back here an hour after posting because I was hoping hoping hoping that my post would be taken the way I meant it and it looks like that’s the case. I just seriously don’t want to see yet another large group of people hurt themselves in this way.
Cheers
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 04:27
  #1636 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 65
Posts: 378
73qanda , from a survivor of ‘89 , spot on.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 05:15
  #1637 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Maharashtra
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
I don't suppose it matters now, AJ's going to outsource all that. Tino is setting up the labour hire/training facility and rumour has it there's a few ex-virgin guys looking to change brands.
Xeptu. Go away. You bring nothing useful to this discussion.
regitaekilthgiwt is online now  
Old 26th Aug 2020, 05:53
  #1638 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: MEL
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post
I understand but I’d like to make a suggestion if you’re open to considering it;
Long term, that idea/attitude/mindset of ‘never forget’ will bring you slowly down. It will change your personality in a way that your loved ones won’t like and won’t achieve anything good. In the immediate future maybe indulge it a bit but be aware of when others are moving on and check that you are too, don’t surround yourself with others that also ‘never forget’. If you hold onto it long enough you become a bitter rambling irrelevant old fool. Seen it happen to an immediate family member who got into the habit of looking backwards instead of forward. So my suggestion is ‘ make sure that ‘ never forget’ doesn’t become a permanent mindset.’
All the best.
Very much agree. Go back to Nov 75 and Gough Whitlam's sacking and the "Maintain the rage" war cry. After a few years it just got tired and tiresome, while we should never forget what happened and ideally we should have changed made to ensure it never happens again, the fact that Whitlam lost the subsequent election and Fraser went on to win several elections and become one of the longer-serving PMs shows that Australia moved on while the 'ragers' became bitter and a record stuck in the same groove.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 10:56
  #1639 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Australia
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by angryrat View Post
You are right, apologies for my loose terminology, it’s an agreement not an award.

Now in regards to your payout, my opinion is you are wrong.

15.10.4 clearly states

“that the combined period of notice and the redundancy entitlement specified in clause 15.10.5 will not be less than 26 weeks.”

Then 15.10.6 states,

”For the purposes of this clause 15.10, ‘a week’s pay’ means the applicable MGH for a full time pilot multiplied by the hourly rate but does not include AFDP or allowances.”

So a minimum of 26 weeks combined and a weeks pay defined.

If we wanted to use your interpretative opinion, then you are still wrong for anyone in the company whose entitlement is less than 13 weeks.

15.10.4(a) states,

“The Company must give a pilot at least three (3) months’ notice of termination due to redundancy provided”

That is at least 3 months notice. Since the minimum combined period of notice and redundancy entitlement is 26 weeks, then using your interpretive opinion, they could pay 4 weeks(plus AL/LSL) to those who are entitled to the minimum of 4 weeks pay and give you 22 weeks notice.

Either way you are wrong, but my opinion is not less than 26 weeks pay.
You might want to check your maths there.

You get three months notice (on which you will accrue leave because you’re still employed) and three months pay (on which you won’t). You don’t get the leave accrual on both the notice period and the payout amount because you aren’t employed for the 3 months payout.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 01:20
  #1640 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Australia
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by angryrat View Post
I don’t understand what you are getting at. Forget leave accumulation for the moment. Let’s just focus on using your method and using the agreement.

Using your method, you are saying that you won’t get paid the 3 months notice and will get paid 3 months pay. You divided that into 2 lots of 13, I’m ok with that.

Now the agreement say “at least 3 months notice”. So the notice period that you spoke of(13 weeks) is at least. So the company can increase the notice period to whatever they like and use the 15.10.5 to work out your redundancy entitlement. The minimum is 4 weeks, so how about we use an example of a pilot who is only entitled to 4 weeks.

So using your interpretation of the agreement where you believe the notice period doesn’t need to be paid out, what is stopping the company from increasing the notice period to 22 weeks and paying the minimum of 4 weeks? Using your interpretation, nothing.

I don’t agree with your interpretation of the agreement. To me, it’s clear, it’s a minimum of 26 weeks.
You’re quite right. I was assuming the company giving the minimum notice period. If they choose to extend the notice period then they can reduce the payment.

I accept that this isn’t the intention of 15.10.4 but I don’t think there is anything stopping the company giving someone notice while they are on stand down, thereby avoiding paying them for that notice period.

The company has shown that they are willing to withhold entitlements to save a dollar. Look at the poor people who were on long term sick leave.
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