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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 22nd Aug 2020, 00:49
  #1501 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Poto View Post
The rest is continued stand downs until things improve. And they will improve at some point.
That's redundancy
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 01:00
  #1502 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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That's redundancy
Except for one small matter.
Redundancy involves payouts.
Indefinite stand-down costs nothing other than leave accrual.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 01:02
  #1503 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by C441 View Post
Except for one small matter.
Redundancy involves payouts.
Indefinite stand-down costs nothing other than leave accrual and that's significantly less than any redundancy payout.
And how long will either party do that, 5 years, 10 years
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 02:39
  #1504 (permalink)  
 
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At some point, a person on permanent stand down will look for a career elsewhere and have to resign from the airline. In theory, this would allow the airline to avoid redundancy. I cannot see that this will be tolerated and someone will test the stand-downs in court and force QF to either re-employ or payout redundancy entitlements as per the relevant EA.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 04:17
  #1505 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 1A_Please View Post
....someone will test the stand-downs in court and force QF to either re-employ or payout redundancy entitlements as per the relevant EA.
Probably, but the difficulty is that neither the EA or Fair Work place any defined time limit on stand-downs, so it comes down to an argument over what constitutes conditions beyond the employerís control unless another avenue can be found.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 04:37
  #1506 (permalink)  
 
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One would have to think long term stand down is far better than the alternative, I don't really understand why everyone is having a problem with it (except for over 60ish you would want to be CR most likely). I for one prefer long term stand down it is costing me money but thats easily managed by getting a job and when domestic kicks off its just a simple email to me and off I go.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 05:56
  #1507 (permalink)  
 
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At some point, a person on permanent stand down will look for a career elsewhere and have to resign from the airline.
Why would you have to resign? I know several that have begun careers in other industries but are still on LWOP.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 06:53
  #1508 (permalink)  
 
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Well obviously they are not going to make many over 60s , or over 50s CR as the payout would be too high max out at 100 weeks or so, CR doubles VR

The CR for joiners from 2016 onwards is 3 weeks per year of service , so a CR is only 12 to 15 weeks, yes there is a 3 month notice period that
"can" be paid out , but why would a company do that when staff currently stood down. The VR was way better than CR

For those who joined 05 or so the VR about equals CR

The stand down accrues leave costs (6 weeks) LSL ( 1 plus weeks) sick leave accrues (& some see that as an entitlement & will use it all) , other types of leave or benefits etc accrue??

You are nudging up towards ten weeks per year to keep people stood down - its a massive cost

What do people think will happen another VR/Lwop push , nothing or CR & when

Lets hope just hope flying and travel all start again , not so likely with what the border bosses are saying
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 07:45
  #1509 (permalink)  
 
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When jobkeeper ends, CR, just the national minimums initially, anything over and above that you'll wait for.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 09:29
  #1510 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
One would have to think long term stand down is far better than the alternative, I don't really understand why everyone is having a problem with it (except for over 60ish you would want to be CR most likely). I for one prefer long term stand down it is costing me money but thats easily managed by getting a job and when domestic kicks off its just a simple email to me and off I go.
Have you tried getting another job recently?
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 11:10
  #1511 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post

The CR for joiners from 2016 onwards is 3 weeks per year of service , so a CR is only 12 to 15 weeks, yes there is a 3 month notice period that
"can" be paid out , but why would a company do that when staff currently stood down. The VR was way better than
CR is a minimum of 26 weeks.

It actually costs QF 51 days per annum to keep a pilot on stand down. (42 if less than 10 years but they’re still accruing the liability LSL albeit in 6-10 years time).

Cheaper to keep the junior pilot stood down for 3 years than make them CR.

In terms of SL most pilots in QF of 10+ years standing would have in excess of 6 months leave. Few actually use it.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 11:15
  #1512 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
CR is a minimum of 26 weeks.
Where did you get that from Keg? (polite question)
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 11:24
  #1513 (permalink)  
Keg

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15.10.4 Notice of termination due to redundancy

(a) The Company must give a pilot at least three (3) months' notice of termination due to redundancy provided, that the combined period of notice and the redundancy entitlement specified in clause 15.10.5 will not be less than 26 weeks. Notice must, at a minimum, be in writing by way of letter to each respective pilot sent to his or her nominated residential address and placed in his or her Company mailbox.

(b) By agreement with an individual pilot, a notice of redundancy may be paid out, varied or withdrawn. ‘

15.10.5 Redundancy entitlement

The following package will apply to a pilot who is made compulsorily redundant:

(a) three (3) weeks' pay for each completed year of service up to and including five (5) years' service, with a minimum of four (4) weeks' pay;

(b) four (4) weeks' pay for each completed year of service in excess of five (5) years; and

(c) pro-rata payment for each completed month of service.

Calculation of service does not include any period or periods of LWOP. The payments set out in this clause 15.10.5 do not include payment in lieu of notice.
So you’ll get three months notice and three months on top as an absolute minimum.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 11:29
  #1514 (permalink)  
 
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Ahhh ok thanks. Lets hope it doesn't come to it.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 11:52
  #1515 (permalink)  
 
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Well that is an excellent policy then - the guy in the street would get that after 13 years
Virgin just give 2 weeks per year (stat mins ?) then caps at 16 weeks when you have done 9 years
Why did they ever agree to that ?
My understanding is that two weeks per year is mins , 4 weeks per year is exceptionally good (QF guys get) & six weeks per year is hollywood stuff
- has occurred but very rarely
LSL is a liability on the balance sheet , it gets paid out pro-rata on departure. Many other types of leave in the contract , so I don't think it is just as simple to
look at annual leave. The various leave accruals also attract superannuation payments , by the time everything is added likely north of 80 days pa to keep someone stood down
real cost of employing someone - take their wage & add 30 % , everyone has their hand in your pocket - state/fed govt taxes/charges , does the company have to pay super on top of the JK payments ?
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 12:35
  #1516 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by C441 View Post
Probably, but the difficulty is that neither the EA or Fair Work place any defined time limit on stand-downs, so it comes down to an argument over what constitutes conditions beyond the employerís control unless another avenue can be found.
Some form of Border restrictions (not necessarily closures but vaccine requirements or individual country restrictions) will probably exist for a few years. In any case FWA have said theyíll be allowing employers as much flexibility as they need to keep their business afloat, with probably no disagreement from the current government. So my guess is stand downs will be for as long as they need them.

Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
When jobkeeper ends, CR, just the national minimums initially, anything over and above that you'll wait for.
The ending of Jobkeeper will have zero effect on whether or not further redundancies are enacted or stand downs are ended. Stand downs were announced well before Jobkeeper came into existence. Jobkeeper may be extended for aviation employees beyond March? But I think the announcement of itís planned ending was to give affected employees plenty of time to organise alternative income well in advance of itís cessation.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 12:36
  #1517 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
does the company have to pay super on top of the JK payments ?
No, or at least they arenít. Still taking tax though.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 23:45
  #1518 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by normanton View Post
Ahhh ok thanks. Lets hope it doesn't come to it.
Are you seriously saying Normanton with all your great advice on this forum you had not even taken the time to have read that clause in the award?? What else have you not read in regards to the award I wonder.

Unbelievable.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 00:59
  #1519 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Some form of Border restrictions (not necessarily closures but vaccine requirements or individual country restrictions) will probably exist for a few years. In any case FWA have said theyíll be allowing employers as much flexibility as they need to keep their business afloat, with probably no disagreement from the current government. So my guess is stand downs will be for as long as they need them.



The ending of Jobkeeper will have zero effect on whether or not further redundancies are enacted or stand downs are ended. Stand downs were announced well before Jobkeeper came into existence. Jobkeeper may be extended for aviation employees beyond March? But I think the announcement of itís planned ending was to give affected employees plenty of time to organise alternative income well in advance of itís cessation.
It's the very reason jobkeeper exists. It would be unreasonable to keep any australian employee stood down indefinately. I have no doubt an amendment to the national stand down provisions are being drafted as we speak. If it were not, that would just mean you would have no choice but to resign eventually. Jobkeeper will end and there won't be any special deals for the airlines that are not available to any other stood down/unemployed australian. After jobkeeper is jobseeker and there may be some scope for an arrangement there, I can't see that would be acceptable to the company though, given you would be accruing entitlements whilst you are effectively unemployed.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 01:53
  #1520 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
Jobkeeper will end and there won't be any special deals for the airlines that are not available to any other stood down/unemployed australian.
Very definitive statement. Some water to pass under the bridge yet.
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