A320 mess Sydney
This is the attitude that stinks. It’s also quite prevalent.
As professionals we are paid to fly from A to B safely. A lot of that safety factor comes from updating and maintaining knowledge at home in your own time.
I always come to work having updated my EFB, with the draft flight plans ready to go. I’ve checked all the notams and weather for my route/s. I’ve checked the status of the aeroplane and considered any issues that may effect me.
Essentially by the time I’ve got a coffee and got to the meeting spot, I’m waiting for the final flight plan and considering how much extra fuel is going on.
We have enough stress in our day to day operations. We didn’t need to cram it all into the tiny window at sign on which doesn’t adequately prepare us for the day ahead.
It also reflects on your professionalism to the other guy who’s waiting for you while you drag your heels. He/she know that it’s going to be a reactive day verse a proactive day.
As professionals we are paid to fly from A to B safely. A lot of that safety factor comes from updating and maintaining knowledge at home in your own time.
I always come to work having updated my EFB, with the draft flight plans ready to go. I’ve checked all the notams and weather for my route/s. I’ve checked the status of the aeroplane and considered any issues that may effect me.
Essentially by the time I’ve got a coffee and got to the meeting spot, I’m waiting for the final flight plan and considering how much extra fuel is going on.
We have enough stress in our day to day operations. We didn’t need to cram it all into the tiny window at sign on which doesn’t adequately prepare us for the day ahead.
It also reflects on your professionalism to the other guy who’s waiting for you while you drag your heels. He/she know that it’s going to be a reactive day verse a proactive day.
I personally find more than enough time in the cruise to maintain my knowledge and have never failed a sim or come close. I never study specifically for sims, and indeed find the logic behind such an activity bizare.
I show up at sign on, and start preparing. As a 'professional', if you believe the company policy and procedures do not allow you sufficient time to safely prepare for flight, then it is on you to report this and have the manuals changed should an investigation reveal that to be the case. It is not the job of a pilot to start inventing their own procedures as a work around should SOP's in their view be deemed inadequate.
Likewise Blueskymine, I just don't understand your approach. I have been flying for many years for 3 different airlines, in my previous airline I was a Safety Investigator, Trainer and Check Captain for many years and I would like to think well regarded as a very proficient operator. I have been asked to be a trainer in my current airline but have always declined the offer, why, because my previous employer took training seriously. They rostered an extra 60 minutes of sign on for the trainee's first two days of flying and then an extra 15 minutes on top of normal for the remainder of his/her line training. At my current airline they give an extra 15 minutes for the first 5 days and then just normal sign on for the rest but expect the trainee and trainer to come in early. That quite frankly is bullsh*t, so I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Maybe where we differ is that outside of my work I don't think about or partake in any aviation related activity, I certainly don't 'actively seek new knowledge', if required I undertake training in new procedures or learn new aircraft types during the allotted time given, if I need more time then as I say this is done either on long flights or on overnights when I am being paid to be there. I have never had a problem with my level of knowledge and have never been reprimanded for departing late on the odd occasion a more complicated situation arises that needs extra briefing time.
If I turn up at the airport 20 minutes early, I too go and have a coffee, I will buy one for any crew I run into and maybe will have it with them too, rest assured though we talk about family, hobbies, life but will certainly not be briefing. If there is no one around I will read the newspaper, I find that to be very relaxing, and have never felt stressed during briefing time due to the schedule clock ticking. May be 3 or 4 flights a year may go late because of my 'UN-proffessional' attitude but that pales in comparison to the amount that go late due to late aircraft, maintenance, missing passengers etc.
If I turn up at the airport 20 minutes early, I too go and have a coffee, I will buy one for any crew I run into and maybe will have it with them too, rest assured though we talk about family, hobbies, life but will certainly not be briefing. If there is no one around I will read the newspaper, I find that to be very relaxing, and have never felt stressed during briefing time due to the schedule clock ticking. May be 3 or 4 flights a year may go late because of my 'UN-proffessional' attitude but that pales in comparison to the amount that go late due to late aircraft, maintenance, missing passengers etc.
We are paid to run a schedule. From A-B on time. That is the whole basis of RPT. That’s what an airline does. For our valued business clients in the premium side of the business it’s critical (obviously I don’t fly the Jetstar line).
All these things that are ‘critical’ are actually not, they’re ‘important’.....not critical.
I have never flown for an airline where I was expected to do my own manual updates, but if I had then I would have been doing them on the flight deck or on an overnight. Last time I did that was as a flying instructor when one of my duties was keeping the schools Aerads up to date. Does that mean that the airline didn't provide you with Charts and Plates, seems a strange thing for a manager to get his professional employee to do, supply their own Jepps? Next you are going to tell me that make you pay for your own medicals and supply your own crew food too.........
Spot on Ollie, for some strange reason I think we’ve followed a very similar path to our current employer.
People who choose to do stuff in their own time are entitled to do so, they are not entitled to question the professionalism of those who don’t, especially when they don’t know them beyond an Internet forum. I always enjoy the phrase “I’ve got the sim coming up, I’d better practice a raw data ILS today for it”, speaks volumes to priorities.
People who choose to do stuff in their own time are entitled to do so, they are not entitled to question the professionalism of those who don’t, especially when they don’t know them beyond an Internet forum. I always enjoy the phrase “I’ve got the sim coming up, I’d better practice a raw data ILS today for it”, speaks volumes to priorities.
I have never flown for an airline where I was expected to do my own manual updates, but if I had then I would have been doing them on the flight deck or on an overnight. Last time I did that was as a flying instructor when one of my duties was keeping the schools Aerads up to date. Does that mean that the airline didn't provide you with Charts and Plates, seems a strange thing for a manager to get his professional employee to do, supply their own Jepps? Next you are going to tell me that make you pay for your own medicals and supply your own crew food too.........
Regarding what we’re paid to do......where does safety fit into your description? ( as a fellow pilot I understand that it goes without saying, non-pilots can sometimes fail to understand this ,”they just plug the auto-pilot”)
All these things that are ‘critical’ are actually not, they’re ‘important’.....not critical.
All these things that are ‘critical’ are actually not, they’re ‘important’.....not critical.
Safety is behind everything we do. Hence why it’s critical to arrive at work well briefed and prepared of what’s ahead.
I was trying to draw attention to your assertion that
For our valued business clients in the premium side of the business it’s critical
not critical.We have higher priorities than that ( as I’m sure you are highly aware) and the focus on OTP regularly impacts our highest priority. I think it’s important in our modern aviation environment to challenge the constant rhetoric about how ‘critical’ OTP is if it’s not accompanied by the qualification that safety is more important. So I did
We get a lot of messaging around OTP and some folk ( not you) need reminding that the whole shooting match is a delicate balancing act.
Cheers
I have worked in airlines that had paper charts but they were maintained by flight ops admin and when you reported for work you collected a trip kit for your duty and the FO’s responsibility was to check that you had the relevant charts. At the end of the trip you dropped the trip kit back to the dispatch desk and went home. Of course I am being a bit disingenuous here, I signed up to work in an airline where I pay for medical and being my own food, I am just making the point that slowly but surely our working conditions are being whittled away in return for ‘gains’ in other areas, the Company keeps chipping away and relies on the fact that some will just get on with it and do things in their own time to keep the show on the road. If that is what you personally choose to do then all power to you, but please don’t question someone’s professionalism just because they choose to work within the contractual parameters that the company and relevant unions set.
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Yes I am, and I really enjoy my job because of the people I work with and where it is based as it lets me live in my home country where my kids have a much better lifestyle than when I was overseas. But my job is just a means to an end and doesn’t warrant any of my free time. As I keep saying if you are such an enthusiast that you want to do your work at home in your own time then please feel free, that is your choice and if it makes you happy then that is great.
I don’t think any amount of unpaid pre flight planning would have eliminated this event.
As many are well aware, it was nothing other than sloppy aviating on both right and left seat.
The fella on the left expects to be carried by his right seater. But what happens when the bod in the right is barely up scratch. This!
There is most certainly a special place these people come from. If I have a dollar for every FO that rants to me about these ex blah blah airline people and there old school old boys ways of operating, I could retire tomorrow.
As many are well aware, it was nothing other than sloppy aviating on both right and left seat.
The fella on the left expects to be carried by his right seater. But what happens when the bod in the right is barely up scratch. This!
There is most certainly a special place these people come from. If I have a dollar for every FO that rants to me about these ex blah blah airline people and there old school old boys ways of operating, I could retire tomorrow.
As many are well aware, it was nothing other than sloppy aviating on both right and left seat.
There is most certainly a special place these people come from. If I have a dollar for every FO that rants to me about these ex blah blah airline people and there old school old boys ways of operating, I could retire tomorrow.
There is most certainly a special place these people come from. If I have a dollar for every FO that rants to me about these ex blah blah airline people and there old school old boys ways of operating, I could retire tomorrow.
The idea that employees should be obligated to do for “free” company related work in their own time has been a pernicious trend in the general economy for some years so I’m not surprised that there might be encouragement for professional aircrew to do the same. Reject it totally. If you don’t, your employers increasing demands will destroy what quality recreation time you still have.
This behaviour - “free” work outside business hours, got so bad in the legal profession that it drove young lawyers to suicide. Even today, my stepsons both have to deal with work related emails and calls on weekends and at night.
The enlightened approach taken by good employers is that work outside scheduled hours, absent a real emergency, is to be frowned upon as a sign of either bad company management, bad planning, incompetence or all three.
This behaviour - “free” work outside business hours, got so bad in the legal profession that it drove young lawyers to suicide. Even today, my stepsons both have to deal with work related emails and calls on weekends and at night.
The enlightened approach taken by good employers is that work outside scheduled hours, absent a real emergency, is to be frowned upon as a sign of either bad company management, bad planning, incompetence or all three.
This: It starts before you even get to the gate.
The PIC retired.
This line is really where the problem started :
Tony Kerns has plenty of good advice regarding cockpit discipline. It starts before you even get to the gate. The report also states that despite the incorrect database Flysmart would have come up with valid data so it would seem that the crew just assumed that the EFB was incorrect. Not really covered in the report was the crew were pushing curfew so they were rushing and the clear lesson is that is when mistakes are made.
Finally those speeds just should not have made sense for a 68t takeoff. Similar to the SQ 747 in AKL that tried to rotate at 127kts with a 397t takeoff. To go back to Tony Kerns, know your aircraft.
This line is really where the problem started :
Tony Kerns has plenty of good advice regarding cockpit discipline. It starts before you even get to the gate. The report also states that despite the incorrect database Flysmart would have come up with valid data so it would seem that the crew just assumed that the EFB was incorrect. Not really covered in the report was the crew were pushing curfew so they were rushing and the clear lesson is that is when mistakes are made.
Finally those speeds just should not have made sense for a 68t takeoff. Similar to the SQ 747 in AKL that tried to rotate at 127kts with a 397t takeoff. To go back to Tony Kerns, know your aircraft.
The whole system is run like fatigue management, you do something wrong and it's your head. The company will go through the manuals and quote you line and verse where YOU ****ed up and they'll be right, you'll have nothing to fall back on! This sin't from personal experience, but personal observation and observation by mates. The company will protect its AOC, if you are in QF and maybe VA you may have a reasonable level of support via your union, otherwise look out.
Drain Bamaged
Two pilots have been suspended from duty after their aircraft nearly ran out of fuel because they forgot to retract the landing gear after take-off.
(forget about the pilot's gender mentioned in this story)
My apologies to the OP for setting this firework off ! (and the thread drift).
Flight preparation in today's competitive airlines is a vexed question. I used to be like those who don't think it should be necessary to do any flight prep at home, or arrive early - feeling that the company should give us sufficient time.
Our company gave us just 15 mins for flight prep, but we had to get on the crew bus 5 mins early to allow for traffic around the airport to the security gate. So we had 10 mins to check-in and read all the NOTAMS, METARS etc, brief each other and the crew, make a fuel decision AND perform EFB updates.
That is not possible, nor sensible. The management were not interested. The union was not interested. Most pilots, sadly, were not interested enough to make a stand about it.
So what does one do? I routinely leave my house 20 mins before I need to. This is to allow for traffic on the M25 and M1 (notoriously busy motorways in the south of the UK). It also allows for the staff carpark being full and having to drive to a more remote carpark and walk back. Then, the crew room computers and printers often need attention before they will work. My extra 20 mins is to allow for all these buggeration factors, and to thoroughly brief myself on the flight.
On the occasional days when there is a bad accident on the roads, I usually still get to work at scheduled report time, and importantly, am not stressed.
That, to me, is being practical, (and professional).
PS regarding paper updates, we routinely used to receive update packages the thickness of a pack of printer paper. It would take several hours to go through all the manuals, remove the old pages and insert the new ones. Not possible or practical to bring 4-5 big A4 binders to work and update them on the flight deck. Thank goodness for Docunet !
Flight preparation in today's competitive airlines is a vexed question. I used to be like those who don't think it should be necessary to do any flight prep at home, or arrive early - feeling that the company should give us sufficient time.
Our company gave us just 15 mins for flight prep, but we had to get on the crew bus 5 mins early to allow for traffic around the airport to the security gate. So we had 10 mins to check-in and read all the NOTAMS, METARS etc, brief each other and the crew, make a fuel decision AND perform EFB updates.
That is not possible, nor sensible. The management were not interested. The union was not interested. Most pilots, sadly, were not interested enough to make a stand about it.
So what does one do? I routinely leave my house 20 mins before I need to. This is to allow for traffic on the M25 and M1 (notoriously busy motorways in the south of the UK). It also allows for the staff carpark being full and having to drive to a more remote carpark and walk back. Then, the crew room computers and printers often need attention before they will work. My extra 20 mins is to allow for all these buggeration factors, and to thoroughly brief myself on the flight.
On the occasional days when there is a bad accident on the roads, I usually still get to work at scheduled report time, and importantly, am not stressed.
That, to me, is being practical, (and professional).
PS regarding paper updates, we routinely used to receive update packages the thickness of a pack of printer paper. It would take several hours to go through all the manuals, remove the old pages and insert the new ones. Not possible or practical to bring 4-5 big A4 binders to work and update them on the flight deck. Thank goodness for Docunet !