Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Flight deck access

Old 25th Jul 2018, 06:48
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Flight deck access

from Casa....

Air operators should take an operational approach to maintaining the so-called ‘two in the cockpit’ practice. This is the advice from CASA following a review of the practice and consultation with the aviation industry. The operational approach to ‘two in the cockpit’ is in line with the position taken by the European Aviation Safety Agency. The ‘two in the cockpit’ practice was adopted as a precautionary approach in aircraft with a seating capacity of more than 50 passengers following the German Wings aircraft crash in early 2015.

The review of the practice in Australia found there were unintended consequential risks, including the second person in the cockpit potentially distracting the pilot, making inadvertent contact with cockpit switches and taking cabin crew away from their safety role in the cabin. It was also found the practice complicated flight crew access to the cockpit and introduced an additional risk of flight deck incursion.

The recommendation is for air operators to evaluate their own safety requirements and make an operational decision on whether to maintain ‘two in the cockpit’ in their standard operating procedures. CASA’s aviation medicine branch will continue to monitor pilot mental health and maintain a high level of awareness among pilots of mental health priorities and sources of assistance.

Hopefully common sense will prevail and we will ditch the dopey two in the flight deck rule
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 07:09
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It should be two pilots in the cockpit at all times.
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 07:51
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Originally Posted by 4Greens View Post
It should be two pilots in the cockpit at all times.
What about toilet visits?.
So do you issue nappies. or fit pee tubes into your two crew aircraft??
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 07:57
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I'll avoid taking a position on the merit of the 'two on the flight deck' argument, but the unintended consequences would have been obvious to anyone at the time the rule was implemented.... unless of course the rule was merely implemented as an overnight knee jerk reaction to an reasonably isolated incident.

Regardless if whether there is merit for the two on deck policy or not, it strikes me as very weak of CASA to handball the problem to individual operators rather than take a stance themselves as the regulator.
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 08:07
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How are CASA monitoring mental health now? If they were serious they would get on and implement the FRMS rules
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 08:11
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What about ops with one FA
Is that why the rule applies to aircraft above 50 passengers? 2 FA's.
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 08:20
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
How are CASA monitoring mental health now? If they were serious they would get on and implement the FRMS rules
With an industry consultation period of three years that expired two years ago...It would seem rather uninterested . Your point is extremely relevant.

From the point of the airline response, two well remunerated, rested and respected pilots is the best safety device on any aircraft. Placing a flight attendant on the flight deck did little given that mental health problems can be just as well disguised under layers of make up as it could allegedly be behind an armoured door.
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 09:31
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Why so complicated, we’ve been having cabin crew come into the cockpit on toilet breaks for over 10 years now with absolutely no problems at all. “Distracting or bumping switches” what clap trap. So how would the crew get food and drink delivered then? I suppose the Pizza is slipped under the ballistic door is it.....oh and forget the cabin crew ever coming in to discuss any issues they need assistance with.......they might bump a switch or distract the poor Pilots.

rubbish.

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Old 25th Jul 2018, 10:55
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I am baffled that some pilots are making the case to continue with this knee jerk nonsense.

We have become an industry which is amazingly safe, and we did so with considered, well thought out rules that manage risk in an appropriate way. Just look at the number of “adverse outcomes” in medicine and compare that figure with aviation and it is very clear that we, as an industry, are exceptionally good at managing risk and safety.

This rule, however, is utter nonsense and does little to nothing to improve safety.

It probably isn’t a big issue with hitting switches etc in the bigger aeroplanes, but the 50 seat and above turboprops and smaller jets there is a real risk of people getting in the way of each other and the controls when entering and leaving the flight deck, plus add the fact that in many cases if it not possible to get one in the flight deck standing, another manoeuvring themselves out of a control seat without the flight deck door being open and it seems to me that this policy created as many risks as it supposedly mitigated.

I would love to see some studies done on the impact on the rule on the health of pilots. Rubbish I hear you say, but if we are honest, how many of us manage our fluid intakes because the ability to jump out and take a leak is significantly more difficult now than it was before? Things like kidney stones, headaches etc are all a function of dehydration and kidney stones have a direct impact on our medicals.

I agree that we need to be cognisant of the mental health of both ourselves and our colleagues, however bunging a cabin crew member in the flight deck is not the way to manage that.

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Old 25th Jul 2018, 11:12
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If they were serious they would get on and implement the FRMS rules
100% correct. Current rostering software is by far a greater risk to pilot mental health than anything else. I’d go so far as to say it’s the biggest risk factor the industry faces at the moment. FRMS by itself will not make for better rostering practices. If there are not hard legal limits that no FRMS can cross, it may well be worse.
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 11:16
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Arm all crew with guns. Teach them to shoot to kill. Paint yellow line on floor aft of cockpit. Remove dangerous lockable door.
During welcome aboard PA advise that anyone who crosses the yellow line will be shot. During induction advise crew ditto if they act irrationally....or serve cold coffee.....or do a bad landing.
Israelis may be willing to share how they stopped all this hijack crap, but I bet they don’t agonise over switches being bumped or 60kg Flight Attendants going berserk. FFS.
That armoured lockable door is the real threat, as we have seen on several suicide flights and at least one where pilots were incapacitated.
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 13:42
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The aviation medicine branch will continue to monitor pilot mental health and maintain a high level of awareness among pilots of mental health priorities and sources of assistance.
They are kidding themselves. How are they monitoring the mental health of pilots? Once a year medical that does not even broach the subject. What about the rest of the year? That does not equal "monitoring".

High level of awareness? Again, they are in dreamland. Where is the guidance and education material?
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 14:25
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Interesting discussions. Vote 1 Snakecharma for President, Mach E Avilli for Minister of Defence.

Lets hope they lighten up on the jump seat as well.
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 14:41
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
They are kidding themselves. How are they monitoring the mental health of pilots? Once a year medical that does not even broach the subject.
Don’t know what your doctor asks you Icarus, but mine reading the questions out that CASA gives them it does broach the topic.

However, how many pilots are going to really say “yeah I’m depressed and want to kill myself”? Probably not many if any.
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 20:15
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This is a practice that's commonly done by airlines in the USA and by FAA regulations, the remaining pilot on the flightdeack must wear their oxygen mask when above FL250. It also begs the question whether the flight attendant who enters the cockpit to accompany the remaining pilot can legally sit in the control seat of the pilot who has left on a lav break? Standing on the flightdeck is not a problem when the air is smooth but if you encounter some light or moderate chop, especially in the smaller cockpits like in the 737 or CRJ/ERJ, surely you'd want the FA to be seated?
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 22:55
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How are they monitoring the mental health of pilots?
Whilst not wishing to sound like a 'conspiracy theorist'…….. The current animated discussion over the 'My Health Record' system may take another turn if a future government/regulator insists that every person involved in a public safety related position must have their My Health Record available to the regulator. Personally, all of my medical events have been discussed with my DAME (who's not my family GP), but I'm sure there's some out there who may just overlook some conditions not seen as relevant to maintaining a licence.
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 23:15
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Bring back the Flight Engineer
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Old 26th Jul 2018, 00:37
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Originally Posted by VH DSJ View Post
This is a practice that's commonly done by airlines in the USA and by FAA regulations, the remaining pilot on the flightdeack must wear their oxygen mask when above FL250. It also begs the question whether the flight attendant who enters the cockpit to accompany the remaining pilot can legally sit in the control seat of the pilot who has left on a lav break? Standing on the flightdeck is not a problem when the air is smooth but if you encounter some light or moderate chop, especially in the smaller cockpits like in the 737 or CRJ/ERJ, surely you'd want the FA to be seated?
DSJ as you know the FAA tend not to over complicate things. Can you point to anything in the FAR’s that specifically precludes a flight attendant from sitting in the pilot seat while another pilot goes to use the lav?
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Old 26th Jul 2018, 01:35
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In Australia try CAR 226.

CAR 226 Dual controls
(1) During flight, a person may occupy a control seat of an aircraft equipped with fully or partially functioning dual controls only if:
(a) the person holds an appropriate pilot licence for the type of aircraft and the class of operations in which the aircraft is flown; or
(b) the person is a student pilot assigned for instruction in the aircraft; or
(c) the person is authorised by CASA.
(2) In authorising a person to occupy a control seat in pursuance of subregulation (1), CASA may grant the authority subject to such conditions as CASA considers necessary in the interests of safety.

Had a cabin crew member sitting in a control seat once on return from the bathroom. Politely informed them that they were breaking the law and not to do it again as the next person may not be so forgiving. Cabin crew are not authorised to occupy a control seat.

As an exercise, ask the cabin crew what they think the purpose of them being on the flight deck whilst the other pilot uses the bathroom is. You may be surprised to find a variety of answers.
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Old 26th Jul 2018, 02:33
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How is every GA operator in the country managing to get around with pax in the front seat without everyone dying I wonder?
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