Flight deck access
Thread Starter
Flight deck access
from Casa....
Air operators should take an operational approach to maintaining the so-called ‘two in the cockpit’ practice. This is the advice from CASA following a review of the practice and consultation with the aviation industry. The operational approach to ‘two in the cockpit’ is in line with the position taken by the European Aviation Safety Agency. The ‘two in the cockpit’ practice was adopted as a precautionary approach in aircraft with a seating capacity of more than 50 passengers following the German Wings aircraft crash in early 2015.
The review of the practice in Australia found there were unintended consequential risks, including the second person in the cockpit potentially distracting the pilot, making inadvertent contact with cockpit switches and taking cabin crew away from their safety role in the cabin. It was also found the practice complicated flight crew access to the cockpit and introduced an additional risk of flight deck incursion.
The recommendation is for air operators to evaluate their own safety requirements and make an operational decision on whether to maintain ‘two in the cockpit’ in their standard operating procedures. CASA’s aviation medicine branch will continue to monitor pilot mental health and maintain a high level of awareness among pilots of mental health priorities and sources of assistance.
Hopefully common sense will prevail and we will ditch the dopey two in the flight deck rule
Air operators should take an operational approach to maintaining the so-called ‘two in the cockpit’ practice. This is the advice from CASA following a review of the practice and consultation with the aviation industry. The operational approach to ‘two in the cockpit’ is in line with the position taken by the European Aviation Safety Agency. The ‘two in the cockpit’ practice was adopted as a precautionary approach in aircraft with a seating capacity of more than 50 passengers following the German Wings aircraft crash in early 2015.
The review of the practice in Australia found there were unintended consequential risks, including the second person in the cockpit potentially distracting the pilot, making inadvertent contact with cockpit switches and taking cabin crew away from their safety role in the cabin. It was also found the practice complicated flight crew access to the cockpit and introduced an additional risk of flight deck incursion.
The recommendation is for air operators to evaluate their own safety requirements and make an operational decision on whether to maintain ‘two in the cockpit’ in their standard operating procedures. CASA’s aviation medicine branch will continue to monitor pilot mental health and maintain a high level of awareness among pilots of mental health priorities and sources of assistance.
Hopefully common sense will prevail and we will ditch the dopey two in the flight deck rule
I'll avoid taking a position on the merit of the 'two on the flight deck' argument, but the unintended consequences would have been obvious to anyone at the time the rule was implemented.... unless of course the rule was merely implemented as an overnight knee jerk reaction to an reasonably isolated incident.
Regardless if whether there is merit for the two on deck policy or not, it strikes me as very weak of CASA to handball the problem to individual operators rather than take a stance themselves as the regulator.
Regardless if whether there is merit for the two on deck policy or not, it strikes me as very weak of CASA to handball the problem to individual operators rather than take a stance themselves as the regulator.
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From the point of the airline response, two well remunerated, rested and respected pilots is the best safety device on any aircraft. Placing a flight attendant on the flight deck did little given that mental health problems can be just as well disguised under layers of make up as it could allegedly be behind an armoured door.
Why so complicated, we’ve been having cabin crew come into the cockpit on toilet breaks for over 10 years now with absolutely no problems at all. “Distracting or bumping switches” what clap trap. So how would the crew get food and drink delivered then? I suppose the Pizza is slipped under the ballistic door is it.....oh and forget the cabin crew ever coming in to discuss any issues they need assistance with.......they might bump a switch or distract the poor Pilots.
rubbish.
rubbish.
Thread Starter
I am baffled that some pilots are making the case to continue with this knee jerk nonsense.
We have become an industry which is amazingly safe, and we did so with considered, well thought out rules that manage risk in an appropriate way. Just look at the number of “adverse outcomes” in medicine and compare that figure with aviation and it is very clear that we, as an industry, are exceptionally good at managing risk and safety.
This rule, however, is utter nonsense and does little to nothing to improve safety.
It probably isn’t a big issue with hitting switches etc in the bigger aeroplanes, but the 50 seat and above turboprops and smaller jets there is a real risk of people getting in the way of each other and the controls when entering and leaving the flight deck, plus add the fact that in many cases if it not possible to get one in the flight deck standing, another manoeuvring themselves out of a control seat without the flight deck door being open and it seems to me that this policy created as many risks as it supposedly mitigated.
I would love to see some studies done on the impact on the rule on the health of pilots. Rubbish I hear you say, but if we are honest, how many of us manage our fluid intakes because the ability to jump out and take a leak is significantly more difficult now than it was before? Things like kidney stones, headaches etc are all a function of dehydration and kidney stones have a direct impact on our medicals.
I agree that we need to be cognisant of the mental health of both ourselves and our colleagues, however bunging a cabin crew member in the flight deck is not the way to manage that.
We have become an industry which is amazingly safe, and we did so with considered, well thought out rules that manage risk in an appropriate way. Just look at the number of “adverse outcomes” in medicine and compare that figure with aviation and it is very clear that we, as an industry, are exceptionally good at managing risk and safety.
This rule, however, is utter nonsense and does little to nothing to improve safety.
It probably isn’t a big issue with hitting switches etc in the bigger aeroplanes, but the 50 seat and above turboprops and smaller jets there is a real risk of people getting in the way of each other and the controls when entering and leaving the flight deck, plus add the fact that in many cases if it not possible to get one in the flight deck standing, another manoeuvring themselves out of a control seat without the flight deck door being open and it seems to me that this policy created as many risks as it supposedly mitigated.
I would love to see some studies done on the impact on the rule on the health of pilots. Rubbish I hear you say, but if we are honest, how many of us manage our fluid intakes because the ability to jump out and take a leak is significantly more difficult now than it was before? Things like kidney stones, headaches etc are all a function of dehydration and kidney stones have a direct impact on our medicals.
I agree that we need to be cognisant of the mental health of both ourselves and our colleagues, however bunging a cabin crew member in the flight deck is not the way to manage that.
If they were serious they would get on and implement the FRMS rules
Arm all crew with guns. Teach them to shoot to kill. Paint yellow line on floor aft of cockpit. Remove dangerous lockable door.
During welcome aboard PA advise that anyone who crosses the yellow line will be shot. During induction advise crew ditto if they act irrationally....or serve cold coffee.....or do a bad landing.
Israelis may be willing to share how they stopped all this hijack crap, but I bet they don’t agonise over switches being bumped or 60kg Flight Attendants going berserk. FFS.
That armoured lockable door is the real threat, as we have seen on several suicide flights and at least one where pilots were incapacitated.
During welcome aboard PA advise that anyone who crosses the yellow line will be shot. During induction advise crew ditto if they act irrationally....or serve cold coffee.....or do a bad landing.
Israelis may be willing to share how they stopped all this hijack crap, but I bet they don’t agonise over switches being bumped or 60kg Flight Attendants going berserk. FFS.
That armoured lockable door is the real threat, as we have seen on several suicide flights and at least one where pilots were incapacitated.
The aviation medicine branch will continue to monitor pilot mental health and maintain a high level of awareness among pilots of mental health priorities and sources of assistance.
High level of awareness? Again, they are in dreamland. Where is the guidance and education material?
However, how many pilots are going to really say “yeah I’m depressed and want to kill myself”? Probably not many if any.
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This is a practice that's commonly done by airlines in the USA and by FAA regulations, the remaining pilot on the flightdeack must wear their oxygen mask when above FL250. It also begs the question whether the flight attendant who enters the cockpit to accompany the remaining pilot can legally sit in the control seat of the pilot who has left on a lav break? Standing on the flightdeck is not a problem when the air is smooth but if you encounter some light or moderate chop, especially in the smaller cockpits like in the 737 or CRJ/ERJ, surely you'd want the FA to be seated?
How are they monitoring the mental health of pilots?
This is a practice that's commonly done by airlines in the USA and by FAA regulations, the remaining pilot on the flightdeack must wear their oxygen mask when above FL250. It also begs the question whether the flight attendant who enters the cockpit to accompany the remaining pilot can legally sit in the control seat of the pilot who has left on a lav break? Standing on the flightdeck is not a problem when the air is smooth but if you encounter some light or moderate chop, especially in the smaller cockpits like in the 737 or CRJ/ERJ, surely you'd want the FA to be seated?
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In Australia try CAR 226.
CAR 226 Dual controls
(1) During flight, a person may occupy a control seat of an aircraft equipped with fully or partially functioning dual controls only if:
(a) the person holds an appropriate pilot licence for the type of aircraft and the class of operations in which the aircraft is flown; or
(b) the person is a student pilot assigned for instruction in the aircraft; or
(c) the person is authorised by CASA.
(2) In authorising a person to occupy a control seat in pursuance of subregulation (1), CASA may grant the authority subject to such conditions as CASA considers necessary in the interests of safety.
Had a cabin crew member sitting in a control seat once on return from the bathroom. Politely informed them that they were breaking the law and not to do it again as the next person may not be so forgiving. Cabin crew are not authorised to occupy a control seat.
As an exercise, ask the cabin crew what they think the purpose of them being on the flight deck whilst the other pilot uses the bathroom is. You may be surprised to find a variety of answers.
CAR 226 Dual controls
(1) During flight, a person may occupy a control seat of an aircraft equipped with fully or partially functioning dual controls only if:
(a) the person holds an appropriate pilot licence for the type of aircraft and the class of operations in which the aircraft is flown; or
(b) the person is a student pilot assigned for instruction in the aircraft; or
(c) the person is authorised by CASA.
(2) In authorising a person to occupy a control seat in pursuance of subregulation (1), CASA may grant the authority subject to such conditions as CASA considers necessary in the interests of safety.
Had a cabin crew member sitting in a control seat once on return from the bathroom. Politely informed them that they were breaking the law and not to do it again as the next person may not be so forgiving. Cabin crew are not authorised to occupy a control seat.
As an exercise, ask the cabin crew what they think the purpose of them being on the flight deck whilst the other pilot uses the bathroom is. You may be surprised to find a variety of answers.