Reputation of Aussie pilots overseas
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,096
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How did the so called 'Austronaught' syndrome come into existence?
Flew with several ex AN FOs in Gulf Air in 1989/90 and found them very good, as was a senior training captain, rather different picture in SIA though. Suddenly being confronted by the European/North American winter, de-icing, Cat2/3, generally crappy weather for days on end came as a bit of a shock after Australian flying and didn't always produce a good result in terms of CRM when flying with FOs who had far more bad weather experience than the Australian captain. In SIA some of the Australian contingent presented a deliberately confrontational approach to management and several were terminated. Others just got on with the job. Heard from fellow captains that just a couple of the ex BA captains were more of a PITA with the, "We didn't do it like that in BA", most of the QF guys also just got on with the job, one tried to split crew rest to LHR etc. into four segments, instead of two and was quickly put straight! Have lived in Australia for seventeen years now and find them to be a good bunch generally but some, just a few, can be complete Chameleons when they get in an aircraft.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"ATC man calmly informed him that the verbal clearance had overall priority in any case."
IMO a controller calmly telling a pilot to ignore all the big red "don't ever cross this line under any circumstances ever ever" lights deserves the contempt it was apparently given
IMO a controller calmly telling a pilot to ignore all the big red "don't ever cross this line under any circumstances ever ever" lights deserves the contempt it was apparently given
“You think the distance to be flown to Oz, therefore the max weight take-off near limits might have something to do with it!”
Well, AA were operating a 777 that night and it headed off no questions asked. Same for DL and CX heading for HKG with probably the longest haul of the night!!!!
I don’t think it was sector length.
Well, AA were operating a 777 that night and it headed off no questions asked. Same for DL and CX heading for HKG with probably the longest haul of the night!!!!
I don’t think it was sector length.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,096
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMO a controller calmly telling a pilot to ignore all the big red "don't ever cross this line under any circumstances ever ever" lights deserves the contempt it was apparently given
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“You think the distance to be flown to Oz, therefore the max weight take-off near limits might have something to do with it!”
Well, AA were operating a 777 that night and it headed off no questions asked. Same for DL and CX heading for HKG with probably the longest haul of the night!!!!
I don’t think it was sector length.
Well, AA were operating a 777 that night and it headed off no questions asked. Same for DL and CX heading for HKG with probably the longest haul of the night!!!!
I don’t think it was sector length.
CX have paid for the thrust bump on their engines, even out of HKG 2kts tail can be too much on a 777. CX performance numbers factor the wind to provide a further buffer, wouldn’t be surprised if other airlines do the same.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,096
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Until the controller makes an error and you sail past the one thing that was correctly telling you that it wasn't safe to enter the occupied runway.
the cross checking at LHR is such that I doubt very much that would happen, the query alone about the stop bar would start the checking process.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stop bars:
I believe we have stop bars partly due to one of the worst aviation disasters in history:
Tenerife Airport Disaster - Wikipedia
The main cause of the accident was a breakdown in communications.
On that basis, a “communication” to cross a lit stop bar would surely have to be put down to a complete failure to learn from history. How do you know they are using the correct callsign?
I believe we have stop bars partly due to one of the worst aviation disasters in history:
Tenerife Airport Disaster - Wikipedia
The main cause of the accident was a breakdown in communications.
On that basis, a “communication” to cross a lit stop bar would surely have to be put down to a complete failure to learn from history. How do you know they are using the correct callsign?
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’m also pretty sure there is no way Australian ATC would ask me to. Maybe that makes them “Austro-ATC”.....
In any case, if I decided to cross one, there is no way my F/O would let me, so we are obviously inundated with “Austro-F/O’s”....
It’s a wonder we ever get airborne... :j
Last edited by Derfred; 6th Feb 2018 at 08:24.
Originally Posted by Defred
In my airline, crossing a lit stop bar must never occur under any circumstances. Maybe that makes my airline an “Austro-airline”.....
I’m also pretty sure there is no way Australian ATC would ask me to. Maybe that makes them “Austro-ATC”.....
In any case, if I decided to cross one, there is no way my F/O would let me, so we are obviously inundated with “Austro-F/O’s”....
It’s a wonder we ever get airborne... :j
I’m also pretty sure there is no way Australian ATC would ask me to. Maybe that makes them “Austro-ATC”.....
In any case, if I decided to cross one, there is no way my F/O would let me, so we are obviously inundated with “Austro-F/O’s”....
It’s a wonder we ever get airborne... :j
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...up/a18-h02.pdf
In my airline, crossing a lit stop bar must never occur under any circumstances. Maybe that makes my airline an “Austro-airline”.....
I’m also pretty sure there is no way Australian ATC would ask me to. Maybe that makes them “Austro-ATC”.....
In any case, if I decided to cross one, there is no way my F/O would let me, so we are obviously inundated with “Austro-F/O’s”....
It’s a wonder we ever get airborne... :j
I’m also pretty sure there is no way Australian ATC would ask me to. Maybe that makes them “Austro-ATC”.....
In any case, if I decided to cross one, there is no way my F/O would let me, so we are obviously inundated with “Austro-F/O’s”....
It’s a wonder we ever get airborne... :j
However since we have thread drifted imagine yourself on a CAVOK and well controlled airport with no conflicting traffic and the red bars from one taxiway to another are on.
Do you,
A, check and receive an assurance from ATC that the bars are inoperative stuck on and that you may procede which you then do after double checking carefully?
B, receive the same but refuse to cross them until you have run out of duty hours/used up flight plan fuel?
I'd be an A man myself. Looking forward to replies about shocking disregard for safety.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Haha Bloggs, good pickup
Hadn’t caught up with that one yet!
They must have been reading this thread.
Maybe we’re just catching up with the rest of the world.
Bloody Austronaughts
Hadn’t caught up with that one yet!
They must have been reading this thread.
Maybe we’re just catching up with the rest of the world.
Bloody Austronaughts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Taxing along in LHR last week I heard an excited and somewhat vexed antipodean voice calling out ATC over some minor stop bar issue twice, seemed to be from a CX. ATC man calmly informed him that the verbal clearance had overall priority in any case. No biggie, it just seemed an over the top reaction in a very well controlled airport but I couldn't help thinking what a long flight that must have been for the other mortal pilot.
Verbal clearance can’t possibly have overall priority “in any case”. All you need is callsign confusion and you might as well not have installed the stop bars in the first place.
I can understand special cases where it is clear that there is a stop bar failure and SOP’s allow an override given special phraseology as has just been mentioned above. CASA has only just reached that level of maturity - an “Austro-regulator?”....
P.S. no excuse for being excited or vexed on R/T.
Last edited by Derfred; 6th Feb 2018 at 09:34.
Consol, this post wasn’t clear on the circumstances, and I latched onto your comment that “verbal clearance had overall priority in any case”.
Verbal clearance can’t possibly have overall priority “in any case”. All you need is callsign confusion and you might as well not have installed the stop bars in the first place.
I can understand special cases where it is clear that there is a stop bar failure and SOP’s allow an override given special phraseology as has just been mentioned above. CASA has only just reached that level of maturity - an “Austro-regulator?”....
Verbal clearance can’t possibly have overall priority “in any case”. All you need is callsign confusion and you might as well not have installed the stop bars in the first place.
I can understand special cases where it is clear that there is a stop bar failure and SOP’s allow an override given special phraseology as has just been mentioned above. CASA has only just reached that level of maturity - an “Austro-regulator?”....
I didn't intend to start a thread drift on stop bars, once again my point was merely an observation on why this guy felt the need to loudly call out (twice) a very efficient ATC operation when a simple query would have done the job and been easier on our ears. I query ATC clearances most days without a ceremony and get on with the job.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair point Derfred but I did say it was in LHR but I should have been clearer. The guidance green lights and stop bars are used to facilitate taxiing, they are not the runway hold short bars which of course are extremely important. If recollection serves me correctly our CX Oz mate was rather pompously objecting to a stop bar not backing up a taxi clearance and the controller informed him that the verbal clearance took priority anyway. E.g. You are still supposed to stop in accordance with your verbal clearance even if the lights indicate you may procede.
I didn't intend to start a thread drift on stop bars, once again my point was merely an observation on why this guy felt the need to loudly call out (twice) a very efficient ATC operation when a simple query would have done the job and been easier on our ears. I query ATC clearances most days without a ceremony and get on with the job then.
I didn't intend to start a thread drift on stop bars, once again my point was merely an observation on why this guy felt the need to loudly call out (twice) a very efficient ATC operation when a simple query would have done the job and been easier on our ears. I query ATC clearances most days without a ceremony and get on with the job then.
Prior to your response I actually just edited my post “no excuses for vexed or excited R/T”, and it’s probably this that was the Austronaught problem rather than the stop bars.
I don’t know that vexed and excited R/T is a particular Austronaught problem, but they do have a habit of questioning questionable ATC clearances, which is a highly admirable trait.
For example:
ATC: Turn left heading 090, descend 3000 (into a mountain)
Not good pilot: Left heading 090, descend 3000
Austronaught: Negative
ATC: CORRECTION, TURN RIGHT, REPEAT RIGHT...
Mistrust in Management
Cannot speak for reputation overseas but can speak as an expat working for QF in OZ
By and large the QF Pilots and F/E's I worked with were very decent and professional individuals.
Of course there were the odd individuals as I have found in all airlines - there were certainly a number in BA/BOAC.
I was seconded to QF from BA in the mid 1980's as an F/E. Very happy days.
QF Pilots and F/E's have earned a reputation for which they should be proud.
Kind regards
Exeng
Of course there were the odd individuals as I have found in all airlines - there were certainly a number in BA/BOAC.
I was seconded to QF from BA in the mid 1980's as an F/E. Very happy days.
QF Pilots and F/E's have earned a reputation for which they should be proud.
Kind regards
Exeng
These days there is much more emphasis on CRM and recruiting someone who can fit in to a team. Modern training programs instill the correct flight deck culture from the beginning into new trainees and interviewers reject unsuitable experienced applicants who won’t adapt.
The days of the ex WW2 Squadron Leader bomber pilot flying a B707 for BOAC before SOPs were developed are thankfully long gone.
The days of the ex WW2 Squadron Leader bomber pilot flying a B707 for BOAC before SOPs were developed are thankfully long gone.
Well we can't have pilots thinking for themselves now can we?
Further I would suggest in Asia especially this same "culture" is why some crews will watch on while the captain flies straight into the end of the runway wall.
Further I would suggest in Asia especially this same "culture" is why some crews will watch on while the captain flies straight into the end of the runway wall.