Airservices and Civil Air
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Airservices and Civil Air
Agreement Reached
Airservices and Civil Air fianlised the drafting process for the new Certified Agreement which will be in place for the next 3 years.
For those who tried to claim it was all about pay; I understand that 11.27% was the final figure over three years. Less than the original offer from Airservices. Civil Air traded off the payrises to retain and improve conditions for its members.
No extra Leave has yet been agreed to, but a Fatigue Management Working Group will be established to look at that, general rostering and fatigue issues.
The affected employees will vote in 2 weeks time to accept or reject the deal.
Taco.
PS still no recognition from the executive that we are worth what we get or understanding that 27% of our wage is for the ugly shiftwork that we do. Bean Counters running the joint - what would you expect.
Airservices and Civil Air fianlised the drafting process for the new Certified Agreement which will be in place for the next 3 years.
For those who tried to claim it was all about pay; I understand that 11.27% was the final figure over three years. Less than the original offer from Airservices. Civil Air traded off the payrises to retain and improve conditions for its members.
No extra Leave has yet been agreed to, but a Fatigue Management Working Group will be established to look at that, general rostering and fatigue issues.
The affected employees will vote in 2 weeks time to accept or reject the deal.
Taco.
PS still no recognition from the executive that we are worth what we get or understanding that 27% of our wage is for the ugly shiftwork that we do. Bean Counters running the joint - what would you expect.
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Good result all around?
Ferris
And you 'settle' for what you think is best and achievable.
Let's analyse what we've 'settled' for:
1) No huge pay increases. Yes, I would have liked a 40% pay increase, and for Airservices to buy my house when I want to sell - but we can't all be the CEO, can we?
(And I suppose an Order of Australia is out of the question too!!)
2) Parity: The issue of recent recruits doing Full Performance Controller (FPC) jobs, holding FPC qualifications, but not being paid as FPCs - purely because of their recruitment date - will be fixed. More 'senior' controllers put the greater good above personal interests. I am willing to forego a certain percentage of my salary to avoid 'shafting' my colleagues.
3) No industrial action: The threat of industrial action, while it was required to show Airservices that the controllers are resolute in their determination to achieve an outcome was not something that anyone did lightly. The fact that no action (beyond stop work meetings) was necessary is a relief to everybody - not least the controllers themselves.
4) It's over: After nearly 18 months of being stuffed around by an intransigent employer, with a negotiating team whose every move seemed designed to avoid an agreement, we at least can look forward to a few years of stability.
But it's not quite over, however. Now is the time for Civil Air to start preparing for the next EBA. We can ill afford to have one out of every three years taken up by the sort of bickering and backbiting that happened in this case.
The general feeling of most of my colleagues is that we are not looking for huge increases in pay and conditions. We just want to maintain what we have, not lose out with cost of living increases and ensure that safety issues like fatigue, staffing numbers etc. are addressed.
Yes, we may have 'settled', but that seems to be the best we could expect. I will be voting to accept it.
You get what you settle for.
Let's analyse what we've 'settled' for:
1) No huge pay increases. Yes, I would have liked a 40% pay increase, and for Airservices to buy my house when I want to sell - but we can't all be the CEO, can we?
(And I suppose an Order of Australia is out of the question too!!) 2) Parity: The issue of recent recruits doing Full Performance Controller (FPC) jobs, holding FPC qualifications, but not being paid as FPCs - purely because of their recruitment date - will be fixed. More 'senior' controllers put the greater good above personal interests. I am willing to forego a certain percentage of my salary to avoid 'shafting' my colleagues.
3) No industrial action: The threat of industrial action, while it was required to show Airservices that the controllers are resolute in their determination to achieve an outcome was not something that anyone did lightly. The fact that no action (beyond stop work meetings) was necessary is a relief to everybody - not least the controllers themselves.
4) It's over: After nearly 18 months of being stuffed around by an intransigent employer, with a negotiating team whose every move seemed designed to avoid an agreement, we at least can look forward to a few years of stability.
But it's not quite over, however. Now is the time for Civil Air to start preparing for the next EBA. We can ill afford to have one out of every three years taken up by the sort of bickering and backbiting that happened in this case.
The general feeling of most of my colleagues is that we are not looking for huge increases in pay and conditions. We just want to maintain what we have, not lose out with cost of living increases and ensure that safety issues like fatigue, staffing numbers etc. are addressed.
Yes, we may have 'settled', but that seems to be the best we could expect. I will be voting to accept it.
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play nicely
Now now Ferris...be nice.
The guys and gals have settled in the best interests of all the members. Not everyone can just get up and b*gger off overseas.
18 months of intransigence has now been settled and not everyone got what they wanted...that's life.
well done to the Civilair team for finally getting this done without major disruptions.
The guys and gals have settled in the best interests of all the members. Not everyone can just get up and b*gger off overseas.
18 months of intransigence has now been settled and not everyone got what they wanted...that's life.
well done to the Civilair team for finally getting this done without major disruptions.
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Someones' got to rock the boat!
The bosses squander vast sums of taxpayers money.
The controllers get the reward- years of pathetic penny-pinching, lies, underhandedness, public attacks.
The bosses do an ordinary job- even by beauracratic standards- and walk off with huge golden handshakes, gongs etc.
The controllers get a slap in the face eba (funding the redress of past industrial inequities/mistakes out of their own payrises!!!!).
ATNS in Sth Africa recently offered MASSIVE pay increases to stem the flood of departures (ask 'em how much). It's only a matter of realising where the power lies. No controllers, no ASA.
Yep, you get what you settle for.
The controllers get the reward- years of pathetic penny-pinching, lies, underhandedness, public attacks.
The bosses do an ordinary job- even by beauracratic standards- and walk off with huge golden handshakes, gongs etc.
The controllers get a slap in the face eba (funding the redress of past industrial inequities/mistakes out of their own payrises!!!!).
ATNS in Sth Africa recently offered MASSIVE pay increases to stem the flood of departures (ask 'em how much). It's only a matter of realising where the power lies. No controllers, no ASA.
Yep, you get what you settle for.
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Just a quick one.....
Hi all. What about the lower wages all round for new controllers? Is a new pay scale still on the cards for them or does the new agreement mean new recruits will be on the same wage scale as the current employees? Cheers,
NFR.
NFR.
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NFR
The entry point is the same, about $15K better off than the original offer, new ATCs will get paid as FPC when they reach that level. A new Senior Controller level will be introduced at the top end, above FPC but below Team Leader, this will have entry requirements, but thats all up to the restructure working group.
No existing staff will be adversely affected by teh SC creation.
The problem isn't solved, just moved till about 8 years down the track, but there should be three agreements (including this one)between now and then.
Taco
The entry point is the same, about $15K better off than the original offer, new ATCs will get paid as FPC when they reach that level. A new Senior Controller level will be introduced at the top end, above FPC but below Team Leader, this will have entry requirements, but thats all up to the restructure working group.
No existing staff will be adversely affected by teh SC creation.The problem isn't solved, just moved till about 8 years down the track, but there should be three agreements (including this one)between now and then.
Taco
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weak as
I for one think that Civil Air has done us no favours in this EBA negotiation.
Fair enough we had to go softly to start, but after 18 months surely we could of done better.
I for one am irate we didn't have some serious industrial action.
So what if we got our bargaining period terminated? We would have had to go to arbitration, and I personally believe that we would have faired no worse than what we have now.
In fact it probably would have been all long over by now.
We have played into Airservises hand with all this delay. They have got the 18 month wage freeze they wanted. We are paying for the new FPCs (why should we?) I believe they deserve the pay parity, but that is AsA problem, not ours!
So now we get 1.77% on certification, and 0.4% for Christmas. (Don't for a minute believe the two parties will reach agreement on the restructure.)
Our next decent pay rise is 2% in another 12 months!!
I believe we have settled for less than we could have acheived, and I will be voting NO!
P.S. Ask your delegate if they enjoyed Cancun, while we were at stop work meetings
Fair enough we had to go softly to start, but after 18 months surely we could of done better.
I for one am irate we didn't have some serious industrial action.
So what if we got our bargaining period terminated? We would have had to go to arbitration, and I personally believe that we would have faired no worse than what we have now.
In fact it probably would have been all long over by now.
We have played into Airservises hand with all this delay. They have got the 18 month wage freeze they wanted. We are paying for the new FPCs (why should we?) I believe they deserve the pay parity, but that is AsA problem, not ours!
So now we get 1.77% on certification, and 0.4% for Christmas. (Don't for a minute believe the two parties will reach agreement on the restructure.)
Our next decent pay rise is 2% in another 12 months!!
I believe we have settled for less than we could have acheived, and I will be voting NO!
P.S. Ask your delegate if they enjoyed Cancun, while we were at stop work meetings
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cancun...
select rant button
Well blind freddo...you too could have taken in the heady delights of Cancun if you had chosen to.
Not for me this year...that time of year its a bit humid I heard
Stupidly IFATCA planned this ever so slightly before the proposed actions but I'm sure they could have put it off for you had you asked them to.
Our reps (and other controllers) go to these conferences for a reason....ask about them or go yourself, don't whine about others going.
ps they are an excellent way to write off a bit of hard earned against the tax monster.
as for the "we are paying for the new fpc's (why should we)" hmmm nothing like a bit of good old self centredness (if that's a word) after bleating that you would like to have seen industrial action....i suppose that you would have expected those guys/gals that you can't see your way clear to support to support your position?
where are you from? Melbourne???
deselect rant button
Well blind freddo...you too could have taken in the heady delights of Cancun if you had chosen to.
Not for me this year...that time of year its a bit humid I heard
Stupidly IFATCA planned this ever so slightly before the proposed actions but I'm sure they could have put it off for you had you asked them to.
Our reps (and other controllers) go to these conferences for a reason....ask about them or go yourself, don't whine about others going.
ps they are an excellent way to write off a bit of hard earned against the tax monster.
as for the "we are paying for the new fpc's (why should we)" hmmm nothing like a bit of good old self centredness (if that's a word) after bleating that you would like to have seen industrial action....i suppose that you would have expected those guys/gals that you can't see your way clear to support to support your position?
where are you from? Melbourne???
deselect rant button
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Blind Freddy- you are the worst sort of agitator. Don't blame the union for what goes on- the union does what it's membership tells it to. If you feel so strongly, go to meetings, organise support, move motions- maybe even take an active role. Don't bag the guys who do all that stuff.
YOU and your colleagues, ARE THE UNION.
YOU and your colleagues, ARE THE UNION.
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Blind Freddy
Vote no! Put your hand up for election and fill your boots!! If you think you could have got a better deal then offer your services - we need legends like yourself.
FYI there was no stopwork whilst IFATCA was on. FYI delegates are allowed to have ARL as well as yourself.
Now I fully suspect that your not actually a line controller - I would guess that your probably not even a union member. We could have all pulled the pin but people like yourself would have been back at work within the hour.
If you wish to criticise send an email to your delegate or the com. I'm sure they will give you a considered response. Don't go hiding behind anonymity.
Vote no! Put your hand up for election and fill your boots!! If you think you could have got a better deal then offer your services - we need legends like yourself.
FYI there was no stopwork whilst IFATCA was on. FYI delegates are allowed to have ARL as well as yourself.
Now I fully suspect that your not actually a line controller - I would guess that your probably not even a union member. We could have all pulled the pin but people like yourself would have been back at work within the hour.
If you wish to criticise send an email to your delegate or the com. I'm sure they will give you a considered response. Don't go hiding behind anonymity.
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diving duck,
When I said "why should we pay for the FPCs" , I meant that I believe they are entitled to the FPC ( and back pay for that matter) but NOT by all of us taking a pay reduction. I believe that the new FPC should get their pay, and we still get our full 2% increment. AsA started this disparity, and it should be them that pay for their exploitation of the FPCs, not us. It like Asa saying we made a mistake and now you have to pay for it.
With regard to our stop work meetings, a lot of the NE was already OS, I think our timing was off in that regard, and was unfair for the people left behind to handle it ( which they did admirably). And I know what goes on at the IFATCA pissups!
B]I still believe we had a lot of industrial muscle which we did not flex nearly enough. I have voiced my opinion in other forums, and with my delegate, but the union as a whole decided against it. I abide by the decision.[/B]
Missy,
I believe anything that gets people discussing a topic and thinking about things before a divisional meeting is beneficial, and may get people actually to go to the meetings!
I will be at the meeting as always.
Ferris,
I have been heavily involved in and with the union since I joined ATC many years ago. I think a lot of good people do good work.
Gadget,
way off the mark! I am an active line controller, and would be the first to walk off the job!!
I hope you all enjoyed your outpouring of emotions, and will continue to think about your future with our illustrious employer.
See you at the meeting!!!
(Not the Melbourne one!)
When I said "why should we pay for the FPCs" , I meant that I believe they are entitled to the FPC ( and back pay for that matter) but NOT by all of us taking a pay reduction. I believe that the new FPC should get their pay, and we still get our full 2% increment. AsA started this disparity, and it should be them that pay for their exploitation of the FPCs, not us. It like Asa saying we made a mistake and now you have to pay for it.
With regard to our stop work meetings, a lot of the NE was already OS, I think our timing was off in that regard, and was unfair for the people left behind to handle it ( which they did admirably). And I know what goes on at the IFATCA pissups!
B]I still believe we had a lot of industrial muscle which we did not flex nearly enough. I have voiced my opinion in other forums, and with my delegate, but the union as a whole decided against it. I abide by the decision.[/B]
Missy,
I believe anything that gets people discussing a topic and thinking about things before a divisional meeting is beneficial, and may get people actually to go to the meetings!
I will be at the meeting as always.
Ferris,
I have been heavily involved in and with the union since I joined ATC many years ago. I think a lot of good people do good work.
Gadget,
way off the mark! I am an active line controller, and would be the first to walk off the job!!
I hope you all enjoyed your outpouring of emotions, and will continue to think about your future with our illustrious employer.
See you at the meeting!!!
(Not the Melbourne one!)
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For those who think 2% is OK.
Seth Efricans are in discussions with their provider (ATNS) at the moment, and are talking about a 75% increase.
Yes, that's right, a SEVENTY-FIVE percent increase. You may want to think about locking yourself into a low pay agreement for 3 years when the next few years will see massive controller shortages worldwide.
Seth Efricans are in discussions with their provider (ATNS) at the moment, and are talking about a 75% increase.
Yes, that's right, a SEVENTY-FIVE percent increase. You may want to think about locking yourself into a low pay agreement for 3 years when the next few years will see massive controller shortages worldwide.
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Put it in perspective. How much do they get paid now?
I agree with your sentiments on a worldwide shortage of ATC's. There is nothing stopping those who want to seek work O/S from doing so. If people are that desperate for more and more money then we all know where to go to get paid a bit more than the average Aussie ATC. You do lose the lifestyle and put a bit of distance between yourself and family and friends though. If you (and your wife and kids if applicable) can deal with it all and value the mighty dollar so much then go for it. Working O/S would be a great experience.
Myself, I'll be voting Yes. IMHO I live in the greatest place in the world and I'm happy to accept the CA on offer. Don't get me wrong, if they offered more $$$ I would take it but you have to negotiate to a reasonable position for everyone. Some issues which were very important to the majority have been resolved. I thank the Civilair Negotiating Comittee for their hard work. I believe we have achieved an agreement which provides what the majority want.
I agree with your sentiments on a worldwide shortage of ATC's. There is nothing stopping those who want to seek work O/S from doing so. If people are that desperate for more and more money then we all know where to go to get paid a bit more than the average Aussie ATC. You do lose the lifestyle and put a bit of distance between yourself and family and friends though. If you (and your wife and kids if applicable) can deal with it all and value the mighty dollar so much then go for it. Working O/S would be a great experience.
Myself, I'll be voting Yes. IMHO I live in the greatest place in the world and I'm happy to accept the CA on offer. Don't get me wrong, if they offered more $$$ I would take it but you have to negotiate to a reasonable position for everyone. Some issues which were very important to the majority have been resolved. I thank the Civilair Negotiating Comittee for their hard work. I believe we have achieved an agreement which provides what the majority want.
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Having read the proposed agreement on the table now as well as the original agreement offered 18 months ago, that we flat out rejected and gave up some pay having meetings over, could someone tell me, other than the FPC equal pay for equal work issue, what has changed/improved.
We didn't like the senior controller restructure, with in effect the top 3 bands of FPC being available only to an unknown number of advertised positions. And alot(including me) didn't like the principle of it ie. paying guys more to do bulls**t projects, than the guys who "just" control aircraft. RESULT: it goes to a working group and we only get part of our pultry payrise if we successfully agree on the restructure. Am I the only one feeling cold steel of theat gun barrell against the side of my head to agree on that one.
We didn't like the lack of no extra leave (and that personal leave rubbish, isn't extra leave for fatigue management, its if you can get one of those golden hearted FIR managers to approve it) RESULT: it goes to a working group where again ASA can offer diddly squat and tell us to take it or leave it.
We didn't like the FPC/Journeyman issue RESULT: We pay our own way out of that one and sign ourselves straight into another case of nonequal pay for equal work ie. All existing employees progress to top FPC regardless of Senior Controller availabilty, yet all new employees stop 3 bands from top and have to wait for all us guys to fall of the perch to get one of those coveted positions and the resulting pay rises.
We have endured an 18 month payrise, ASA are feverishly trying to train new ATC's to cover the gaping hole that will be left by the pending departure of a large chunk of TMA controllers due to age, and what do we do. We accept a payrise over 3 years (which if you include the wage freeze is 4 and 1/2 years) which is at or possibly below CPI. Please vote no and tell Bernie "Slash Burn and Sell SEC(victorian state electricity commission) " Smith to get serious and offer a realistic package or start brushing up on his ATC skills.
We didn't like the senior controller restructure, with in effect the top 3 bands of FPC being available only to an unknown number of advertised positions. And alot(including me) didn't like the principle of it ie. paying guys more to do bulls**t projects, than the guys who "just" control aircraft. RESULT: it goes to a working group and we only get part of our pultry payrise if we successfully agree on the restructure. Am I the only one feeling cold steel of theat gun barrell against the side of my head to agree on that one.
We didn't like the lack of no extra leave (and that personal leave rubbish, isn't extra leave for fatigue management, its if you can get one of those golden hearted FIR managers to approve it) RESULT: it goes to a working group where again ASA can offer diddly squat and tell us to take it or leave it.
We didn't like the FPC/Journeyman issue RESULT: We pay our own way out of that one and sign ourselves straight into another case of nonequal pay for equal work ie. All existing employees progress to top FPC regardless of Senior Controller availabilty, yet all new employees stop 3 bands from top and have to wait for all us guys to fall of the perch to get one of those coveted positions and the resulting pay rises.
We have endured an 18 month payrise, ASA are feverishly trying to train new ATC's to cover the gaping hole that will be left by the pending departure of a large chunk of TMA controllers due to age, and what do we do. We accept a payrise over 3 years (which if you include the wage freeze is 4 and 1/2 years) which is at or possibly below CPI. Please vote no and tell Bernie "Slash Burn and Sell SEC(victorian state electricity commission) " Smith to get serious and offer a realistic package or start brushing up on his ATC skills.
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Baileys
It's not JUST about the almighty dollar. It's also about working for an employer that has made deception an art form. It's about managers running around trying so hard to squeeze the controllers to save a dollar, they dont realise/don't care that they are SQUEEZING THE CONTROLLERS. It's about a false pretence of being a business, without even trying to justify huge amounts of money($100s of millions) wasted on equipment. It's about turning an enjoyable job into a chore, the workplaces into sad, demoralising places to be.
Be careful. If every single principle, concept and intent isn't locked down, you'll be off to the IRC every week. And even if they are, you'll be off to the IRC every second week.
At the end of the day, I go to work for the money. Are you getting what you are worth?
Be careful. If every single principle, concept and intent isn't locked down, you'll be off to the IRC every week. And even if they are, you'll be off to the IRC every second week.
At the end of the day, I go to work for the money. Are you getting what you are worth?
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money vs lifestyle
With regards to money....
do you live to work, or work to live??
The employer owns my bod for 8 hours a day, 18 days a month.
for that I am recompensed with what I consider a reasonable amount.
The other 16 hours a day, and 12 days a month are mine to do with what I wish.
Do the sums...if it's making you unhappy and stressed for that 8 hours...go somewhere else or do something else.
I live o/s nowadays, best move I ever made, loads of guys/gals I used to work with made all the noises about shifting os, but that was all they did...talk about it.
I also know loads of people that DID move into the wider world, and haven't come across too many that regretted the switch.
Please note, management in most places in the world are not what the line controllers wish of them (where I am now I'm pretty contented), so, if it comes down to you bitching about the boss.. why not go to a place that pays a lot more for exactly the same hassles?
do you live to work, or work to live??
The employer owns my bod for 8 hours a day, 18 days a month.
for that I am recompensed with what I consider a reasonable amount.
The other 16 hours a day, and 12 days a month are mine to do with what I wish.
Do the sums...if it's making you unhappy and stressed for that 8 hours...go somewhere else or do something else.
I live o/s nowadays, best move I ever made, loads of guys/gals I used to work with made all the noises about shifting os, but that was all they did...talk about it.
I also know loads of people that DID move into the wider world, and haven't come across too many that regretted the switch.
Please note, management in most places in the world are not what the line controllers wish of them (where I am now I'm pretty contented), so, if it comes down to you bitching about the boss.. why not go to a place that pays a lot more for exactly the same hassles?