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So you need a new fleet Leigh?

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So you need a new fleet Leigh?

Old 21st Jul 2019, 04:20
  #1101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FightDeck View Post

you won’t be able to mix the flying.

You sure about that?
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 04:28
  #1102 (permalink)  
 
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From what Iíve heard CASA will not allow mixed fleet flying and it is very unlikely.
Regardless as it stands currently sunrise is planed to fly 23 hour TOD departing Australia at night.
Thatís what is proposed and must be sustainable and safe.
From many accounts the aircraft may not be operationally capable of doing it anyway.
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 04:29
  #1103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FightDeck View Post
From what Iíve heard CASA will not allow mixed fleet flying and it is very unlikely.
Regardless as it stands currently sunrise is planed to fly 23 hour TOD departing Australia at night..
Can you post the departure times?
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 04:37
  #1104 (permalink)  
 
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The AIPA draft figures I sighted had around 8pm departure time in SYD/MEL to make the QF1 morning slot into London.
Approx 23 plus duty hours. All night.
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 04:42
  #1105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FightDeck View Post
The AIPA draft figures I sighted had around 8pm departure time in SYD/MEL to make the QF1 morning slot into London.
Approx 23 plus duty hours. All night.
I'd say you're overshooting by a good 1-1.5 hours on that duty time.
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 05:37
  #1106 (permalink)  
 
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Suppose we will just have to wait and see when itís published. Thatís if the aircraft can make it.
What Iíve seen it was close to 23 hours duty.
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 10:41
  #1107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ConfigFull View Post
You naive fool. Answer the question - are you willing to do ULH for 30% less? Welcome to the 787.
yep,
easiest job Iíve ever had. Way less stressful than short haul and way less fatiguing.
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 11:28
  #1108 (permalink)  
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Not anti the aircraft however what Qantas want to do will be hard flying on the body. If you think 23 hour work days leaving at night is easy then your viewpoint disagrees with the science otherwise it would be legal. Regardless No one has flown it so anyone that says itís easy is full of S$&*. If your (sic) potentially flying this kind of operation for many years consecutively, potentially to 65 and beyond it needs to be safe and sustainable. I believe CASA are of the viewpoint itís not safe as other countries donít allow it.
The duty of care ought be foremost in the minds of both the airline and the AIPA, after it is a statutory requirement.
It is not as any such study fails to meet benchmarks for established statistical modelling.

Instead, Little Napoleon stresses "efficiencies" need to advance by the pilots, otherwise, ever the one trick pony, the aircraft go somewhere else.

Such TOD extensions may not meet with member state approvals.

Aircraft capability may limit the operation, but health outcomes over the long term ought be the prime focus. They are not as the study is not long of sufficient size or duration from which any meaningful inference can be drawn.
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 11:42
  #1109 (permalink)  
 
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There are too many bonuses at stake. Joyce will get his way.
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 13:48
  #1110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
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Seriously cry me a river.........

QF need a new fleet... ok here’s a new fleet idea with a new route... Hang on no as pilots we don’t want that cause it’s never been done before. Ahhh if Wilbur and Orville had that thought.

Yes it’s going to be a tough duty, no I’ve never done ULH nor do I really want to. However push vote standup for a roster that says that’s all you do and I reckon the doors will be knocked down.

Grab the SQ roster for EWR, although as stated very different FDP, but let’s have a look.

A mate of mine once said, what’s the diff between a pilot and a whining dog? Yep eventually the dog will stop whining! Yes he knew he was one of them (as we all are).

Now what will the crew complement be? 2 Capt, 2 FO? SO? Whatever it will be will be overkill as that’s no doubt what you will demand, but seriously stop harping on about this. It will happen if the aircraft can do it so get over it and make it work for you.

Rant over... for now!
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 16:53
  #1111 (permalink)  
 
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ďYes itís going to be a tough duty, no Iíve never done ULH nor do I really want to. However ...Ē

Mate of mine said some pilots can't help themselves arguing about things they have no idea about.
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 21:38
  #1112 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Global Aviator View Post
Seriously cry me a river.........

QF need a new fleet... ok here’s a new fleet idea with a new route... Hang on no as pilots we don’t want that cause it’s never been done before. Ahhh if Wilbur and Orville had that thought.

Yes it’s going to be a tough duty, no I’ve never done ULH nor do I really want to. However push vote standup for a roster that says that’s all you do and I reckon the doors will be knocked down.

Grab the SQ roster for EWR, although as stated very different FDP, but let’s have a look.

A mate of mine once said, what’s the diff between a pilot and a whining dog? Yep eventually the dog will stop whining! Yes he knew he was one of them (as we all are).

Now what will the crew complement be? 2 Capt, 2 FO? SO? Whatever it will be will be overkill as that’s no doubt what you will demand, but seriously stop harping on about this. It will happen if the aircraft can do it so get over it and make it work for you.

Rant over... for now!
If the science supports it, then fantastic.
That they need a new fleet is axiomatic.

The "study" they propose does not meet established benchmarks.
Shiny metal jet syndrome is a well known, successful yet unstudied phenomena too..

Mate of mine said some pilots can't help themselves arguing about things they have no idea about.
That is precisely the point, nobody really knows the health effects of extending beyond current limits which are limits for a reason.
Ought not crew health be first and foremost? A longitudinal study of sufficient duration with sufficient sample size would provide an idea of what is presently unknown.
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 23:14
  #1113 (permalink)  
 
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Now what will the crew complement be? 2 Capt, 2 FO? SO? Whatever it will be will be overkillÖ...
That is not correct Global.
At the moment the proposed crew complement is that currently used; 1 Captain, 1 F/O and 2 S/Os. SQ used 2 Captains and 2 F/Os.
The significance of this is that for one crewmember to rest in the latter part of the cruise, the other front seat pilot will have been in the seat for 4 or 5 hours prior to commencing the approach, having had probably 3 rest breaks comprising maybe two continuous periods of sleep of 3 to 4 hours at best. If the suggested ETD is that mentioned previously, the crew may not have slept 'normally' in a convention bed for around 36 hours. That sounds adequate if your at home and going to spend a day doing whatever you do, but not if your are required to be adequately rested for an approach that is routine most days but potentially challenging on others.

It's not that the pilots don't want to do these trips, it's that they want scientifically based information and an appropriate crew complement to ensure that they are able to operate it safely with the minimum impact on their health.

They also believe there are significant efficiencies by the very nature of the operation without, for example, intervening layovers and the associated costs, that further efficiencies sought by the company are unnecessary given the huge efficiencies gained with the 787 award.
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 23:29
  #1114 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn't give Global Aviator too much oxygen people, they are just looking for someone to blame for when they shelve the whole project..blame the pilots, it's EBA time. His opening line.."it's an idea" ...sums up Qantas management "strategy" (LMAO) of the last decade..an idea like Red Roo, Jetstar HK, etc etc. When due process occurs with those "ideas"..how many a/c have we ordered in that time frame people??
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 23:39
  #1115 (permalink)  
 
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The sunrise pilots wonít be the first humans to spend 24 hours at work.

NSW firefighters do 24 on 24 off 24 on 5 days off and it sure seems popular. A lot more days at home than a short haul pilot.


https://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/...15-gjn1sk.html
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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 00:16
  #1116 (permalink)  
 
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I too work 24 hour shifts at a Central Queensland Helicopter Rescue base.

Like the NSW firefighters, I get to sleep at work. In a proper bed, at sealevel. Not in a big long tube at 36000 feet with a lot of ambient noise. The quality of sleep would be questionable.

We have a 15 minute response time during the day, therefore must be awake. Then being called out at midnight for a 5 - 6 hour task is hard work. Even though I may have had a few hours sleep. I have gone offline due to fatigue with plenty of "duty hours" remaining. Because I felt I was a danger to myself and the crew. Probably don't have that luxury at 36000 feet.
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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 00:23
  #1117 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Mitch Vernon View Post
I too work 24 hour shifts at a Central Queensland Helicopter Rescue base.

Like the NSW firefighters, I get to sleep at work. In a proper bed, at sealevel. Not in a big long tube at 36000 feet with a lot of ambient noise. The quality of sleep would be questionable.

We have a 15 minute response time during the day, therefore must be awake. Then being called out at midnight for a 5 - 6 hour task is hard work. Even though I may have had a few hours sleep. I have gone offline due to fatigue with plenty of "duty hours" remaining. Because I felt I was a danger to myself and the crew. Probably don't have that luxury at 36000 feet.
Thank you Mitch for giving context to the debate.

The effects on long term health are unknown-unknowns at 36,000'.
The effects of long term repeated exposure are also unknown.

Qantas need new aircraft, they need a direction that isn't inward looking, solely focused on unit cost reductions.
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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 04:16
  #1118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Global Aviator View Post


Yes itís going to be a tough duty, no Iíve never done ULH nor do I really want to.



Zero experience and zero science. Expert opinion. Not.



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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 04:23
  #1119 (permalink)  
 
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Aipa shouldn't even begin negotiations on project sunrise unless the first thing put on the table from the company is 2 Capt, 2 F/o's as minimum crew.
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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 06:00
  #1120 (permalink)  
 
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I was surprised to read it won’t be 2 Capt & 2 FO, next they will push to make crew rest in the bunk not count like a sandy airline.....

So that is my point fight for what you want and you can’t tell me that only doing the 3 ULH in the bid period (as mentioned above) would not be fantastic.

Mix in Asia’s with ULH and I agree it would not be nice!
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