Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Pilot shortage

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Old 13th Jan 2018, 08:21
  #561 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
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You don't just swap hats going from pilot union negotiator to management pilot.
As Gordon Gekko said,' if you ain't inside, you are outside'

Yanis Varoufakis provided the clarity not afforded by Gekko when he stated, and I paraphrase:

'When invited in, you leave your coat and values at the door. Insiders never tell tales and they don't speak to outsiders'

I agree Gnadenberg,

I was just illuminating a dark shade in pilot unionism that is so difficult for many to accept they bury their heads in the sand.
The same darkness was what I was alluding to

Last edited by Rated De; 13th Jan 2018 at 08:32. Reason: Spelling
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 12:25
  #562 (permalink)  
 
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Yea nah

If 457 visas are being used to patch the hole temporarily for a pilot shortage then when is anyone (I.e government and private companies) going to do something about the shortage? Or are we forever going to see a highly globalised competition within Aus forever seeing as no one will take initiative for solving this.

Also I'm not sure if you guys have heard of "Australian wings academy" but they allow a HECs VET fee debt scheme to pay for your training for all licences required and you pay it back when you have a job above a certain salary per year. They also offer accommodation for interstate students. I guess similar to Rex cadet scheme however you aren't binded within their bs T and C's.

It's in gold coast where I'm located so I will be doing it after completion of my electronic engineering degree. Reason I'm doing this is due to the state of GA in Aus, I need a back plan just incase. Hopefully I'm on the right track idk I'm just a newbie
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 13:11
  #563 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Akahmi View Post
If 457 visas are being used to patch the hole temporarily for a pilot shortage then when is anyone (I.e government and private companies) going to do something about the shortage? Or are we forever going to see a highly globalised competition within Aus forever seeing as no one will take initiative for solving this.

Also I'm not sure if you guys have heard of "Australian wings academy" but they allow a HECs VET fee debt scheme to pay for your training for all licences required and you pay it back when you have a job above a certain salary per year. They also offer accommodation for interstate students. I guess similar to Rex cadet scheme however you aren't binded within their bs T and C's.

It's in gold coast where I'm located so I will be doing it after completion of my electronic engineering degree. Reason I'm doing this is due to the state of GA in Aus, I need a back plan just incase. Hopefully I'm on the right track idk I'm just a newbie
As much as most on here (including me) advocate that GA experience after finishing your license is great experience, I would surmise that those Rex or jetstar cadets have moved on to much higher paying jobs a lot sooner than slogging it out in GA (rightly or wrongly).

Unless of of course youíre just indirectly advertising for said school you mentioned.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 14:22
  #564 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by havick View Post
As much as most on here (including me) advocate that GA experience after finishing your license is great experience, I would surmise that those Rex or jetstar cadets have moved on to much higher paying jobs a lot sooner than slogging it out in GA (rightly or wrongly).

Unless of of course youíre just indirectly advertising for said school you mentioned.
Ah I see, and I'm definitely not advertising lmao, just letting you guys know. Anyway I hears Rex offers alot of cadetship spots and normal jobs to low hour pilots, that being said I'd most rather do a cadetship but is a general aviation job worth it with Rex since I've heard finding that first job is very difficult? Also I'm new so if this is going too off topic I'll stop.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 03:23
  #565 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Akahmi View Post
..... they allow a HECs VET fee debt scheme to pay for your training for all licences required and you pay it back when you have a job above a certain salary per year.
You will find numerous Universities also have a similar diploma degree in aviation. Some of these have direct relationship with qantas link for grads. Plenty of info on this in this forum..

Note: If your using fee help to do your Electronics degree, you may exceed the fee help cap for the Aviation degree as this only so much the Govt. (aka taxpayers) will assist you with
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 08:47
  #566 (permalink)  
 
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Keep seeing more and more job ads, yet bugger all increases in pay and conditions... who will cave first thatís the question!
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 09:11
  #567 (permalink)  
 
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Pilot shortage aside, it will take a massive increase in money to lure me home, why would I want to keep at it till im 65 when by the time im 50 in the overseas world I'll have enough to retire. The shortage is a myth...its a pay shortage.
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 09:27
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The shortage is a myth...its a pay shortage.
The market will clear, but you are correct in that to induce supply price must rise.

It will consequently take a period of time for a noticeable change to occur.
However the more acute the more obvious it becomes.

For those practicing the dark art of IR/HR the realisation that their models for recruitment, remuneration and indeed employee control no longer are valid will be a painful process. Heck they may even have to treat people with respect, not just weasel words...
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 09:56
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Originally Posted by Rated De View Post
Heck they may even have to treat people with respect, not just weasel words...
Would be a nice change from being treated like a replaceable piece of dog crap!
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Old 15th Jan 2018, 11:45
  #570 (permalink)  
 
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It was interesting to hear the AMA (Aust Medical Assoc) in the media the other week pointing out that we have to increase the pay of our rural GP's to encourage them to go there.

Of course GP's are an essential rural service and are (effectively) paid by our taxes.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if rural aviation, which is also an essential rural service, was pushed the same way.
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 01:38
  #571 (permalink)  
 
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Here is the scale of the problem just in Japan over the next decade +. By my ballpark calculation, Japan will need to train about 5,500 additional pilots over the next 12 to 15 years based on the numbers in the article.

Who is going to bear the financial risk for the trainees for those unable to get a part loan?

This is the nub of the problem for operators. Nobody wants to bear the risk of spending a very large sum of money only to realise the candidate is not suitable. No operator is going to guarantee a job without a qualification, and few potential pilots are going to take an all-or-nothing risk without a guarantee of a job?

Ultimately national governments will probably have to subsidise some of the risk for both the potential pilot and the operators to solve this dilema.

Interest-free loan program takes off to aid Japan's future pilots

Starting from next academic year, a select number of students dreaming of becoming airline pilots will be eligible to borrow a total of 5 million yen interest free under a new financial aid system called "mirai no pilot" (future pilots).

The funds are being provided by the freshly founded aircraft pilot scholarship foundation, whose representatives include four private universities offering piloting courses -- J. F. Oberlin University, Tokai University, Sojo University and the Chiba Institute of Science -- together with vocational school Japan Aviation Professional College, and New Japan Aviation Co., which offers flight training programs. ANA Holdings Inc. and Japan Airlines Co. will partly cover the cost of operating the foundation and will help select students for the program based on entrance exam scores, English language ability and other factors. The aid is to be repaid 10 years after graduation.

It is hoped the system will help to secure urgently needed pilots as the popularity of low-cost carriers (LCC) and airlines' demands grow. According to the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism's Flight Standards Division, there were 6,389 pilots belonging to Japan's main domestic airlines as of January 2017. In order to meet the central government's goal of having 60 million foreign tourists visit Japan annually by around 2030, Japan will need an estimated 8,500 pilots by then. However, 54 percent of current pilots are aged 45 or older, and are expected to retire in large numbers around 2030.

In expanding their operations, LCCs have already experienced a widespread pilot shortage. Companies including Osaka Prefecture-based Peach Aviation Ltd. and Chiba Prefecture-based Vanilla Air Inc. had to cut at least 2,000 flights in 2014 due to aircraft captains taking sick leave or retiring. Sapporo-based AIRDO Co. also announced a plan to suspend a total of 60 flights in November 2017 and this February due to losing aircraft captains and other pilots to retirement.

As for aviation schools at private universities, Tokai University became the first to offer a course in 2006, with Oberlin, Sojo and the others following its lead. In order to operate a plane, pilot candidates need to acquire a license for each type of aircraft, a commercial pilot license requiring 200 hours of flight experience, among other conditions, as well as an instrument rating to follow the directions of air traffic controllers.

Through the six organizations that created the financial aid system, it is possible to acquire a commercial pilot license and other required certifications, but the cost of training at both domestic and international facilities -- not included in tuition costs -- can run from 9 million to 15 million yen, which is an extremely heavy burden for many students to bear.

"It takes years to raise students to become aircraft captains," says foundation representative and J. F. Oberlin University Chancellor Toyoshi Satow. "Using this system, we would like to cultivate outstanding pilots who fly safely."
Interest-free loan program takes off to aid Japan's future pilots
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 02:24
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as well as an instrument rating to follow the directions of air traffic controllers.
Oh, so THAT'S what my instrument rating is for...!
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 03:34
  #573 (permalink)  
 
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If pilots are on the 457 list, should they not also be on the National Skills Needs list? https://www.australianapprenticeship...lls-needs-list

If these apprenticeships are still a thing, then flight instructors, which meet the requirement of a CERT IV level for VET, could be employed as apprentices at least until they build enough time to earn an ATPL. As the schools would be paying out less money of their own to employ those instructors, they could then lower the cost of training, which would, at least theoretically, make training available to more people.

Has this been discussed already? I didn't find it in my quick search.

Last edited by Aloha_KSA; 16th Jan 2018 at 03:52.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 22:34
  #574 (permalink)  
 
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It's not only training accessibility, which is problematic., it was never easy anyway. The biggest problem is a gap between end-of-training experience and the expected hireable experience. In the past this gap was closeable with GA operations. Now it is far harder for the newly trained pilots to get to the point where they become sufficiently experienced for larger operations.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 23:31
  #575 (permalink)  
 
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Is anyone able to give me straight up what a First officer on the F100 with Alliance earns?
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 00:03
  #576 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trevor the lover View Post
Is anyone able to give me straight up what a First officer on the F100 with Alliance earns?
Look up their EBA on the fair work commision website, stop wasting everyone's time
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 00:20
  #577 (permalink)  
 
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More to life than money

Originally Posted by haughtney1 View Post
why would I want to keep at it till im 65 when by the time im 50 in the overseas world I'll have enough to retire.
Perhaps because you might enjoy it? Perhaps because living in your home country gives you intangible, non-monetary benefits that are often not replaceable in your expat residence?

I'm very thankful I don't view my job as a financial means to a finishing line in a race that I want to end as quickly as possible.

Call me strange...but I actually really enjoy going to work. I manage to keep a decent work/life balance and I think there will probably be a fair bit of disappointment when I do have to hang up the wings one day.

I worked overseas for a decade but really enjoy being home again despite the lower salary.

Horses for courses...

PG
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 00:50
  #578 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbus A320321 View Post
Look up their EBA on the fair work commision website, stop wasting everyone's time
In his/her defence, the alliance EBA has the pay section blocked out.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 01:49
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Originally Posted by sgenie View Post
It's not only training accessibility, which is problematic., it was never easy anyway. The biggest problem is a gap between end-of-training experience and the expected hireable experience. In the past this gap was closeable with GA operations. Now it is far harder for the newly trained pilots to get to the point where they become sufficiently experienced for larger operations.

and that's the crux of the problem.


Everyone says "just head up north", but how many GA operations actually exist "up north" that actually take fresh CPL's?


I've seen it a bunch of times on this forum, fresh CPL's ask for info about going north and get a response of "just google it" or "get off your computer and go there and find out for yourself", but does this really help anyone?


Their seems to be an attitude of "In my time I just did X and it worked out for me so you have to do that too", but what does that achieve?


The fresh CPL's don't want to be handed a job as a lot of people claim. The more experienced people shouldn't be actively discouraging people from starting an aviation career though.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 01:59
  #580 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Brakerider View Post
In his/her defence, the alliance EBA has the pay section blocked out.
If that is the case then I'm mistaken and I apologise
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