Bad habits or just the real way to fly?
An advantage of intercepting the inbound for a Sector 1/Parallel instead of tracking direct to the fix, is that it gives a chance to assess drift prior to reaching the aid. Useful for the next outbound, or going straight into the approach.
As for the OP:
1. If you rotate at the correct IAS (not always specified) and pitch at the correct rate to the required attitude, you should be at or quite close to the target speed. Usually that's to achieve Vtoss at 50' ie rotate at some speed prior to the Vtoss target, and achieve it at 50'. You shouldn't have to pitch higher initially. Try rotating a bit earlier (if a Vr isn't specified in the manual).
2. Usually it's bug 1st then turn. Not a bad idea to always turn the bug in the correct direction, as someone noted. You then keep a common method whether you or the autopilot is flying. Also when assigned a future heading the procedure remains the same. The bug serves to remind you what HDG you need.
Similarly, you should do the same with an altitude alerter/assigned altitude indicator: Set it when given new altitude, then start the climb or descent.
3. In a hold the timing outbound starts abeam or wings level. In the sector entry it starts when you cross the aid.
As for the OP:
1. If you rotate at the correct IAS (not always specified) and pitch at the correct rate to the required attitude, you should be at or quite close to the target speed. Usually that's to achieve Vtoss at 50' ie rotate at some speed prior to the Vtoss target, and achieve it at 50'. You shouldn't have to pitch higher initially. Try rotating a bit earlier (if a Vr isn't specified in the manual).
2. Usually it's bug 1st then turn. Not a bad idea to always turn the bug in the correct direction, as someone noted. You then keep a common method whether you or the autopilot is flying. Also when assigned a future heading the procedure remains the same. The bug serves to remind you what HDG you need.
Similarly, you should do the same with an altitude alerter/assigned altitude indicator: Set it when given new altitude, then start the climb or descent.
3. In a hold the timing outbound starts abeam or wings level. In the sector entry it starts when you cross the aid.
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Point one. Set the attitude visually. Back up with insruments. One day, when you need to go onto instruments shortly after T/O, you will have the correct feel for the rate of rotation to give you the performance you desire. Back to basics - power plus pitch gives performance.
Point two. Bug first. When you get a clearance to turn onto a heading, bug it. I did this when I was flying single pilot IFR in a small Piper and I still do it now on Boeings and Airbus. When you bug first, you have an instant reminder of the heading you were cleared to (or that you wanted to go on). Especially Airbus - set heading then pull.
Point three. To be honest, it sounds a little bit retentive. I've always taught (and done) timing at wings level, whether it be entering a hold, or timing an offset to join downwind for a circling app (but don't forget to look out the window!!!). Never, in over a quarter century of flying have I been challenged on this.
To put things in perspective, I was instructing when I had bugger all hours and experience. I'm sure, looking back, I told some of my students some whacky things that now, with another 20 something years under my belt, I would cringe at. Often there is no right or wrong. I do it this way. You do it that way. As long as the outcome is common then we are all in agreement.
But I do like your questioning mind! Keep it up.
Point two. Bug first. When you get a clearance to turn onto a heading, bug it. I did this when I was flying single pilot IFR in a small Piper and I still do it now on Boeings and Airbus. When you bug first, you have an instant reminder of the heading you were cleared to (or that you wanted to go on). Especially Airbus - set heading then pull.
Point three. To be honest, it sounds a little bit retentive. I've always taught (and done) timing at wings level, whether it be entering a hold, or timing an offset to join downwind for a circling app (but don't forget to look out the window!!!). Never, in over a quarter century of flying have I been challenged on this.
To put things in perspective, I was instructing when I had bugger all hours and experience. I'm sure, looking back, I told some of my students some whacky things that now, with another 20 something years under my belt, I would cringe at. Often there is no right or wrong. I do it this way. You do it that way. As long as the outcome is common then we are all in agreement.
But I do like your questioning mind! Keep it up.
power plus pitch gives performance.
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JulietBravo, you are obviously in the early stages of a commercial flying career. And don't have all the answers, skills and experience that we all hope you one day will have. You are paying for your instruction and you therefore have the right to ask questions. Often these questions are better asked in the pre lesson briefing or the post flight debrief. It is a poor reflection upon you and your character IF you do not explain your concerns to your instructor and ask him to explain why he wants procedures carried out in the way that he does. If you don't provide him with a chance to explain, but start asking other pilot's their opinions, then you are undermining his position and squandering your own money. In order to be a successful airline pilot you need to know the role that is expected of you (SOPS), ask polite, respectful questions when you see things that don't seem correct to you, continue asking questions till you are satisfied with the response or let the other crew member know that you are not satisfied with the response and suggest a course of action. When you reach the airlines, all of this will be taught, explained and practised in regular CRM training sessions. Until that time you should endeavour to be fair in your dealings with all aviation professionals and try to sort problems out at the source without publicising or expanding the disagreement. Goodluck with your career, like all jobs it has it's highs and lows.
Last edited by Mangi Fokker; 28th Aug 2016 at 04:51. Reason: Spelling
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Thank you for your input mangi fokker and I understand where you are coming from. It may be a poor reflection of my character to some which is fine, but I just wanted to hear other peoples opinions on the matter before approaching him as this is not paid training, it's for a job where I didn't want to give the wrong impression to the check and trainer if I was wrong. The thing is, in my SOPs manual it has the timing begins when the turn onto the reciprocal is complete, it also says that 15-18 degrees will give the required performance, so this forum was purely to seek others opinions on the matter and opening my mind before approaching him about doing things a little differently. Again I do understand where you are coming from though, so thanks.
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Thank you for your input mangi fokker and I understand where you are coming from. It may be a poor reflection of my character to some which is fine, but I just wanted to hear other peoples opinions on the matter before approaching him as this is not paid training, it's for a job where I didn't want to give the wrong impression to the check and trainer if I was wrong. The thing is, in my SOPs manual it has the timing begins when the turn onto the reciprocal is complete, it also says that 15-18 degrees will give the required performance, so this forum was purely to seek others opinions on the matter and opening my mind before approaching him about doing things a little differently. Again I do understand where you are coming from though, so thanks.
Actually hacker, you make an excellent point.
We have a few (well more than a few) blokes who cannot distinguish between technique and policy.
One classic we had/have is we fly a decelerating approach where we start configuring at 3000 and decelerate and configure on the way down the ILS to be stable by 1000'
The book says flap 1(whatever the first flap setting is on the various aeroplanes), flap 2, gear down flap 3 etc etc etc. (insert type appropriate flap setting names).
We have blokes who get bent out of shape if you take the gear first because of where you are in time and space.
They look at you like you have three heads when you ask for gear first.
The policy is you need to be stable at 1000' and if everything is going to plan then you follow the normal sequence of events, but you don't have to if it doesn't suit your situation - you do what you need to do, within the published limitations of the aeroplane, in order to meet the policy limits. This is an example of the difference between technique and policy.
It is a lesson or understanding that some people never get to.
We have a few (well more than a few) blokes who cannot distinguish between technique and policy.
One classic we had/have is we fly a decelerating approach where we start configuring at 3000 and decelerate and configure on the way down the ILS to be stable by 1000'
The book says flap 1(whatever the first flap setting is on the various aeroplanes), flap 2, gear down flap 3 etc etc etc. (insert type appropriate flap setting names).
We have blokes who get bent out of shape if you take the gear first because of where you are in time and space.
They look at you like you have three heads when you ask for gear first.
The policy is you need to be stable at 1000' and if everything is going to plan then you follow the normal sequence of events, but you don't have to if it doesn't suit your situation - you do what you need to do, within the published limitations of the aeroplane, in order to meet the policy limits. This is an example of the difference between technique and policy.
It is a lesson or understanding that some people never get to.
Snakecharma, I'd certainly get bent out of shape if you took gear out of sequence. I don't care if you take gear at 2500' instead of 2000' but I'd always expect it to be between flap 2 and flap 3 (using your example).
Edit: Are you flying multi-crew or single pilot?
Edit: Are you flying multi-crew or single pilot?
If there is an advantage to taking the gear out of sequence and all is within the manufacturers limitations, and there are no issues with high descent rates in IMC or night, what is the problem? I imagine I do it in the 737 about once a year when ATC have changed their mind about something or held us up for traffic etc.
It is a rare occasion when it is advantageous but it does happen and is not unsafe in my opinion. I'm curious as to what the objection is, might we land with the flaps up?
It is a rare occasion when it is advantageous but it does happen and is not unsafe in my opinion. I'm curious as to what the objection is, might we land with the flaps up?
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If you are high/fast at any stage during approach below max gear speed then I will drop the gear for the drag if I think that is the best option!
Get too bent out of shape about it and we will both discuss in the Chief Pilot's office!
(Heavy jet, 2 crew, left seat)
Aerocat, multi crew, French heavy jet, left hand seat.
Tank engine, I am with you. And I have done it on all manner of aeroplanes from biggish turbo props to numerous jet types as well.
Not sure why you would get bent out of shape if I took the gear early, I am just using the aeroplane to its best advantage to ensure I don't put myself at a disadvantage at the bottom of the approach! The aeroplane doesn't give a rats arse when you out the gear out. (Within the published aircraft from limitations of course)
If you did get bent out of shape I would be disappointed and we would chat about it on the ground but I would expect the gear to go down when I asked for it.
But to return the mildly insulting favour - are YOU flying single pilot or multi crew? And if you are multi crew are you a Capt or FO?
Tank engine, I am with you. And I have done it on all manner of aeroplanes from biggish turbo props to numerous jet types as well.
Not sure why you would get bent out of shape if I took the gear early, I am just using the aeroplane to its best advantage to ensure I don't put myself at a disadvantage at the bottom of the approach! The aeroplane doesn't give a rats arse when you out the gear out. (Within the published aircraft from limitations of course)
If you did get bent out of shape I would be disappointed and we would chat about it on the ground but I would expect the gear to go down when I asked for it.
But to return the mildly insulting favour - are YOU flying single pilot or multi crew? And if you are multi crew are you a Capt or FO?
Last edited by Snakecharma; 31st Aug 2016 at 04:42.
Ok fair enough. I've never had to do it, never seen anyone do it, and would be very surprised if someone with me did it. Surprises aren't good in multi-crew ops, but if you guys are doing it every now and then I don't suppose it would be that surprising.
I wasn't meaning to insult, just trying to get a handle on the operation. Single pilot and it doesn't really matter what you do, within reason, multi-crew and you want to be predictable.
Left seat multi-crew, for what it's worth, and in a jet with a very effective airbrake which is probably why our experiences differ.
I wasn't meaning to insult, just trying to get a handle on the operation. Single pilot and it doesn't really matter what you do, within reason, multi-crew and you want to be predictable.
Left seat multi-crew, for what it's worth, and in a jet with a very effective airbrake which is probably why our experiences differ.
Well, thinking about it there is absolutely no benefit to it in the 146. The limiting speeds are in order of the standard configuration changes, so not surprising I haven't done it or seen anyone do it 
. Disregard my comments.
. Disregard my comments.
Get back to real basics:
POWER + ATTITUDE = PERFORMANCE.
Set takeoff power. When the bird is ready to fly, set the takeoff attitude. WAIT. The speed will settle close to the climb speed. If not,
CHANGE CHECK ADJUST
Change the attitude, check (physically stop the control movement) and wait for the adjustment to happen.
Attitude is instant, performance takes time. Sounds like your instructor has forgotten the basics. Dump him.
POWER + ATTITUDE = PERFORMANCE.
Set takeoff power. When the bird is ready to fly, set the takeoff attitude. WAIT. The speed will settle close to the climb speed. If not,
CHANGE CHECK ADJUST
Change the attitude, check (physically stop the control movement) and wait for the adjustment to happen.
Attitude is instant, performance takes time. Sounds like your instructor has forgotten the basics. Dump him.
