AFAP not at the table in SAR Pilot Award ??

[Square Bear]

...................explain the ethics of forcing a pilot to join a union (the most expensive union by far, to boot) to access a Loss of Licence insurance product.

Perhaps you should look at the MBF LoL product as being one of the BENEFITS of being an AFAP member, as opposed to being "forced" to join in order to obtain it.

It is not as if you can't easily obtain LoL from another source.

[rmcdonal]

Hula, when you answer my question, you could for the benefit of J3pipercub and others explain the ethics of forcing a pilot to join a union (the most expensive union by far, to boot) to access a Loss of Licence insurance product.

Joining the AFAP is just part of the cost of joining the MBF, if that then makes it too expensive for what it pays out then don't join and sign up with an insurer such as CommInsure instead. You don't have to use the AFAP while you are a member.
Is it ethical to force a pilot a to join a Union? No it is not, and that is why no one is forcing them to join. If they want to be able to access a product only available to members, then they will need to join.
The MBF is not an insurance product, it is a Mutual Benefit Fund (MBF). It was created by AFAP members for AFAP members.

[j3pipercub]

Bloggs

You really are quite slow if you think the only LoL insurance on the market is offered by the MBF.

[ratpoison]

Anyway..........................what was this thread about again??????????????????

[Square Bear]

what was this thread about again??????????????????

As the title suggests, it is about the AFAP not being at the table in the SAR Pilot Award.

What part of the debate being waged here do you consider as not being about the pros and cons of the representation by either the AFAP or the TWU.

At least the discussion being waged by both sides of the argument has more merit than your simple little throw a way line that really adds FA to the issue.

[Blitzkrieger]

Tell me, does the TWU offer any ancillary benefits to members?

[ratpoison]

Square,

Here it is sunshine...... AFAP not at the table in SAR Pilot Award ??

It is NOT a thread about AFAP and it's Loss of Licence cover.

Get back on topic.

has more merit than your simple little throw a way line that really adds FA to the issue.

"spade"....... for the weak and the offended by life itself, hey Seaeagle

[Seaeagle109]

Ratpoison,

Hasn't anyone ever told you that resorting to personal invective weakens any reasoned argument.

Seaeagle109

[Madame Bandit]

Get back on topic.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Actually seaeagle, now that one reads all in prospective, Rat's comment was quite apt. One must call a spade a spade.

Geeeeeez.....you lads back home need some chill pills. Things getting a bit worrying in the Oz job front are they?

[pithblot]

Quiet down here, quite quiet.

Well, Madame, that certainly stopped the party.
Like a pork sandwich in a bar mitzvah.

[Blitzkrieger]

Geeeeeez.....you lads back home need some chill pills. Things getting a bit worrying in the Oz job front are they?

I am sure you say that in jest Madame Bandit, but it's worth addressing all the same.

We hardly need to take a chill pill "here in OZ", truth be told, the
opposite is required. What is worrying about the job situation in OZ right now is the way in which airlines are running amok with our conditions and pay. They are quite overtly making a mockery of the fair work act and contracts signed in good faith.

We used to use the term "race to the bottom" to describe airline management practices, but now it seems equally apt to use when describing some union practices too. What is most galling about that is the fact we pay these organizations to represent our wellbeing as pilots, not sign off on some regressive contract on our behalf so as to appear to be kicking goals; being the ones who closed the deal.

The point of this thread was to highlight the fact that one very competent and pilot focused union was secretly circumnavigated by Cobham, and that is a very sinister move indeed.

Back on topic.....

[717tech]

Well said Blitzkrieger!

[Icarus2001]

I agree that it is odd that the AFAP were "excluded".

However the Captains salary is $133,500 and the FO $73,500. There is a CPI increase provision in the agreement.

I ask again, what do you think these positions are worth?

Around 250 hours flying a year, with lots of reserve time, some at home.

[Capn Bloggs]

You asked for it...

Blitzkreiger, showing your true colours, I see. Pity, I liked your approach to matters Prune until now. Some of us have forgotten more about IR than you'll ever know. I suggest that you and your ranting/raving mates pull their heads in and start working with people, on both sides, instead of grandstanding and generally being nobody's friend.

As for your "race to the bottom" comment, tell me, who a few years ago was happy with 2%?

Oh, and ask HB to answer my question... or has he been silenced by his masters?

[Vref+5]

Most 604 pilots I know start on at least $150, within a year or so they are on 180. Thats to do private flying only, taking the boss to Maui to play golf. If they think they will get any 604 pilots with experience to join, they might need to up the ante a tad

[clear to land]

Very specialised role flying a mid-sized multi crew corporate jet way outside its normal envelope whilst maintaining minimum currency, and spending half your life on call-as a minimum 160k to start THINKING about it. The figures agreed by the TWU are INSULTING considering the skill sets required.

[Icarus2001]

Most 604 pilots I know start on at least $150, within a year or so they are on 180.

Is that in Australia?

The corporate flying gig entails the company buying your life. The phone rings at 8pm and you are told at 6am tomorrow you are off to the US for a two week golf trip for the boss. On the way home he decides to go to Macau for three days for the casino fun. So the pay has to reflect private ops (F&D hahha) and no structure.

The SAR job is rostered, predictable as to reserve and RDOs at least.

Very specialised role flying a mid-sized multi crew corporate jet way outside its normal envelope whilst maintaining minimum currency,

That does sound VERY dramatic. Outside the normal envelope, CASA may be interested in that. What you really mean is a flight level transit out to a search or drop area, followed by time low level (1000'-2000' AMSL mostly then an occasional 500' run) then a flight level transit. Not exactly test pilot stuff is it.

and spending half your life on call-as a minimum

Not really true is it, have you seen the rosters? I have. Predictable within reason.

minimum 160k to start THINKING about it. The figures agreed by the TWU are INSULTING considering the skill sets required.

I believe that you are way out of touch. Skill set. See above. You do know the autopilot is connected to the FMS don't you? Or did you think that they were proposing to hand fly all the time?

I guess those who feel the need to feel insulted will not apply.

[yadot]

I know someone in Asia who is a First Officer on a similar sized jet and is being paid AUD 280K. Captains are about 340-360K.


So for those with experience that want to come home, with all their money already saved and looking for a lifestyle job, then yes this might fit.


Other than that, it is not a job paying industry rate in the Asia Pacific region!


I remember the intro for the Virgin 777 fleet for an FO was about AUD 46K. This was increased significantly within a few years.


It is a game, that is all it is!

[neville_nobody]

I'd be betting there will be interest from the RAAF with many people already rated and they have the low level training and experience.

[Vref+5]

Not for 120, they won"t be interested.