AFAP not at the table in SAR Pilot Award ??
I asked for it?
Play the ball please Bloggs.
As for what was or wasn't acceptable several years ago, I fail to see the relevance moving forward.
Facts relating to this thread:
1) The TWU has gone for a lowball deal.
2) The AFAP wasn't asked to contribute.
That's all.
If people disliking these facts is alarming to TWU hierarchy, I suggest the TWU change tack.
If this qualifies as a rant, rant complete.
As for what was or wasn't acceptable several years ago, I fail to see the relevance moving forward.
Facts relating to this thread:
1) The TWU has gone for a lowball deal.
2) The AFAP wasn't asked to contribute.
start working with people, on both sides
If people disliking these facts is alarming to TWU hierarchy, I suggest the TWU change tack.
If this qualifies as a rant, rant complete.
And here's some more...
Play the ball? Tell that to your mate Hula Bula (who I note has run for the hills). The past? Relevance? Of course you fail to see the relevance. You weren't even there, were you?
Let me spell it out for you. You weren't invited to the table because people don't like your camp. Pretty simple really. Be in the game, be reasonable, and your camp might get asked for your opinion when a greenfields agreement is being set up. My recent experience is that your camp deserves none of that.
In any case, why on earth are you sledging the TWU? Had the boot been on the other foot, would your camp really have invited the TWU to be at the table? Of course not. Hell will freeze over before you guys and the TWU would willingly talk together. Perhaps you are envious that the TWU has achieved more than you... (and would even more if it had a "compulsory" membership base to get access to good LOL). How about ripping into the operator? It is the party that didn't involve you, not the TWU.
If you want to be part of the team, you change tack...
Let me spell it out for you. You weren't invited to the table because people don't like your camp. Pretty simple really. Be in the game, be reasonable, and your camp might get asked for your opinion when a greenfields agreement is being set up. My recent experience is that your camp deserves none of that.
In any case, why on earth are you sledging the TWU? Had the boot been on the other foot, would your camp really have invited the TWU to be at the table? Of course not. Hell will freeze over before you guys and the TWU would willingly talk together. Perhaps you are envious that the TWU has achieved more than you... (and would even more if it had a "compulsory" membership base to get access to good LOL). How about ripping into the operator? It is the party that didn't involve you, not the TWU.
If you want to be part of the team, you change tack...
Not for 120, they won"t be interested.
I would suggest that there is going to be many RAAF guys applying as there is nowhere else to go at the moment.
The problem for Cobham is that low ball salaries are fine when everything is in your favour. They could really blow the whole thing up if there is mass recruitment again, as your entire flight department could walk out the door, just look at what happened at Coastwatch at few years ago.
Vref + 5
180 plus for a 604??? Absolute rubbish. I am a 604 captain, nowhere near that. And I know what my mates in corporate are on for 604s and Globals.
And F/Os in Asia on 280, captains 340 - again rubbish
180 plus for a 604??? Absolute rubbish. I am a 604 captain, nowhere near that. And I know what my mates in corporate are on for 604s and Globals.
And F/Os in Asia on 280, captains 340 - again rubbish
What's the "going rate" then?
604 rate closer to 140.
Led Zep and Icarus - I don't really wish to put a "fair" number on it. True 604 corporate has different demands - operate worldwide autonomously, permits, ground handling, accom, keep the boss happy, slot issues when the boss is late, late notice permits when the boss changes his mind, cargo issues (they always shop too much), permanent standby etc etc. There is a LOT more to corporate than an ignorant post earlier suggested ,ie fly boss to Maui for golf. So what is a true and fair rate for that?
Cobham - less hours, lots of unproductive waiting around, standbys at home, ie it's a lifestyle job, so maybe less pay. BUT, there are extra skills to learn and maintain - high speed low level, low speed low level, rescue quals (ie air drops), search pattern procedures. So maybe more pay deserved, pay shouldn't just be based on work hours.
So to compare a 604 SAR operation to a 604 corporate job - well it's not apples with apples. It's just the same machine.
What is a fair rate is up to an individual- if 130k to live an easy life suits you, then its a fair rate. If you want more dough for a 604 job, you will need to go corporate and suffer (or enjoy) all that comes with corporate command responsibilities.
I just really wanted to make the point that I'd love to get 180k on a 604, but I'm gunna need to go to Asia or the sandbox to get near that. And there I'll be damned lucky to get 350 as was quoted
Led Zep and Icarus - I don't really wish to put a "fair" number on it. True 604 corporate has different demands - operate worldwide autonomously, permits, ground handling, accom, keep the boss happy, slot issues when the boss is late, late notice permits when the boss changes his mind, cargo issues (they always shop too much), permanent standby etc etc. There is a LOT more to corporate than an ignorant post earlier suggested ,ie fly boss to Maui for golf. So what is a true and fair rate for that?
Cobham - less hours, lots of unproductive waiting around, standbys at home, ie it's a lifestyle job, so maybe less pay. BUT, there are extra skills to learn and maintain - high speed low level, low speed low level, rescue quals (ie air drops), search pattern procedures. So maybe more pay deserved, pay shouldn't just be based on work hours.
So to compare a 604 SAR operation to a 604 corporate job - well it's not apples with apples. It's just the same machine.
What is a fair rate is up to an individual- if 130k to live an easy life suits you, then its a fair rate. If you want more dough for a 604 job, you will need to go corporate and suffer (or enjoy) all that comes with corporate command responsibilities.
I just really wanted to make the point that I'd love to get 180k on a 604, but I'm gunna need to go to Asia or the sandbox to get near that. And there I'll be damned lucky to get 350 as was quoted
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Having been in the biz jet industry for best part of 20 years, I was on 170k last time I was running an AOC. My friends are earning 180, they are conducting private operations. I guess those on less are just line drivers for larger charter orgs, just turning up to do charters to standard ports.
The difference between a standard 604 gig - flying 40 000 feet to Hawaii or Dubai - and cobham's - flying a swept wing jet at low level, in search patterns, in crap weather, 1500NM off the coast, dropping down to conduct airdrop operations at a few hundred feet, is huge. If you don't have the experience flying that type of jet in normal operations, you can't perform the more advanced ones. If you haven't performed those types of low level operations a long way offshore, and I'm guessing a lot of people out there haven't, then you just don't understand the difference. Unfortunately there will be too many under qualified people lining up for their first jet gig, without the necessary experience levels. And they may well end being the ones being searched for. I'm not being being alarmist, just pointing out recent history.
One more question. Does anyone in Cobham Special Missions actually have any experience on the 604? Or on any jet? Wait, I know the answer..... So, an operation being conducted without suitably experienced pilots without suitable oversight......
The difference between a standard 604 gig - flying 40 000 feet to Hawaii or Dubai - and cobham's - flying a swept wing jet at low level, in search patterns, in crap weather, 1500NM off the coast, dropping down to conduct airdrop operations at a few hundred feet, is huge. If you don't have the experience flying that type of jet in normal operations, you can't perform the more advanced ones. If you haven't performed those types of low level operations a long way offshore, and I'm guessing a lot of people out there haven't, then you just don't understand the difference. Unfortunately there will be too many under qualified people lining up for their first jet gig, without the necessary experience levels. And they may well end being the ones being searched for. I'm not being being alarmist, just pointing out recent history.
One more question. Does anyone in Cobham Special Missions actually have any experience on the 604? Or on any jet? Wait, I know the answer..... So, an operation being conducted without suitably experienced pilots without suitable oversight......
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I wasn't going to say anything, but just have to say that vref+5...you nailed it!
BTW, people keep saying you'll be on standby at home...well they are partially correct, but only at night.
From dawn till last light you will be expected to be at the airport and unless you have a good reason, you will be expected to be requesting taxi clearance 30 minutes from accepting task.
Lots and lots of sitting around....you might not fly for weeks on end, only to be called at 2am to do a search 200nm off the coast in crap weather in pitch black conditions.
It isn't a job for someone to "Learn" to fly the 604, you'll have already have had to have done that somewhere else.
BTW, people keep saying you'll be on standby at home...well they are partially correct, but only at night.
From dawn till last light you will be expected to be at the airport and unless you have a good reason, you will be expected to be requesting taxi clearance 30 minutes from accepting task.
Lots and lots of sitting around....you might not fly for weeks on end, only to be called at 2am to do a search 200nm off the coast in crap weather in pitch black conditions.
It isn't a job for someone to "Learn" to fly the 604, you'll have already have had to have done that somewhere else.
Don't worry, the TWU has got it covered
Hans Solo & Vref+5,
What you are saying sounds way too sensible.
I could drop the word 'airmanship' into this conversation,
but that's just me getting old and alarmist.
Toughen up Sunshine, the TWU are
all-over it.
What you are saying sounds way too sensible.
I could drop the word 'airmanship' into this conversation,
but that's just me getting old and alarmist.
Toughen up Sunshine, the TWU are
all-over it.
Last edited by pithblot; 25th Nov 2015 at 04:02.
When there are highly qualified heavy jet Captains from O/S coming back to Australia to fly turboprops for 70K a year just to get back to Australia, i'm sure that they will find some highly qualified guys that are willing to fly a CL604 for 100 hours a year.
Rodney rude's post is the most straight factual and to the point in this whole thread. If the deal is that horrible, no one will apply and they'll have to offer more money...
Rodney rude's post is the most straight factual and to the point in this whole thread. If the deal is that horrible, no one will apply and they'll have to offer more money...
Bottums Up
I'm surprised at the number of nay-sayers on this thread (not sure why), with dire predictions of unqualified staff, lack of appropriate skills, etc. etc.
Whilst not often referring to Wikipedia, I think the above quoted paragraphs suggest they might just have access, fairly easy access in fact, to the expertise needed to safely and successfully fulfill the tasks as contracted.
In the absence of inside knowledge, I guess time will tell.
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Cobham plc is a British manufacturing company based in Wimborne Minster, Dorset, England. It is listed on the London Stock Exchange and is a constituent of the FTSE 250 Index. According to Defense News it is the 51st largest defense firm in world, and 5th largest in the UK, based on 2013 revenue.
The Cobham Aviation Services SBU operates more than 150 fixed and rotary wing aircraft around the world. It specialises in the conversion and support of a wide range of civil and military aircraft, and through an FB Heliservices consortium with Bristow Helicopters at the UK's Defence Helicopter Flying School trains all UK helicopter pilots for the Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and British Army.
The Cobham Aviation Services SBU operates more than 150 fixed and rotary wing aircraft around the world. It specialises in the conversion and support of a wide range of civil and military aircraft, and through an FB Heliservices consortium with Bristow Helicopters at the UK's Defence Helicopter Flying School trains all UK helicopter pilots for the Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and British Army.
In the absence of inside knowledge, I guess time will tell.
History CC history
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Apologies for the thread drift, I did forget to mention in my original post that the likely reason the AFAP weren't at the table is because they would have pointed out the experience/skill set required to do the job, therefore the offer wasn't appropriate. ie Cobham didn't want that answer so they didn't bother asking the appropriate people the question. And then you shake the tree to see what falls out.
From what I've seen of that industry the chances of them asking for assistance is pretty much zero, too many egos involved, telling their bossess they could do it cheaper than the other guys. Buy a sim, plagerise the type rating syllabus from Flght Safety, it's not difficult at all. Except that flying a 604 is vastly different that a Dash 8, big time. That's in straight and level flight, and approaches, let alone low level over water.
Airline boys coming home. I've seen quite a few of these coming home and into the corporate world, they last about six months. Not because of their skills and experience, but they can't cope with the additional requirements of the job, which includes getting the toilet serviced, manually filling the water system. loading the catering, buying the catering, organising visas etc etc etc. All those things have been done for them for years on end. Nothing against them at all, it's just a different world.
From what I've seen of that industry the chances of them asking for assistance is pretty much zero, too many egos involved, telling their bossess they could do it cheaper than the other guys. Buy a sim, plagerise the type rating syllabus from Flght Safety, it's not difficult at all. Except that flying a 604 is vastly different that a Dash 8, big time. That's in straight and level flight, and approaches, let alone low level over water.
Airline boys coming home. I've seen quite a few of these coming home and into the corporate world, they last about six months. Not because of their skills and experience, but they can't cope with the additional requirements of the job, which includes getting the toilet serviced, manually filling the water system. loading the catering, buying the catering, organising visas etc etc etc. All those things have been done for them for years on end. Nothing against them at all, it's just a different world.
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That's it Vref+5. Not a thread drift, not even a mil. They didn't want the answer, so they didn't ask the question.
The deals been done, but for 100 hours/crew/year, surely it would be better to use a different platform and add or integrate SAR to/with an existing operation? SAPL DHC8s or RAAF P3s would at least provide aircrew with lots of practice. How does the cost compare? Who cares. It's only tax payer's money.
George
The deals been done, but for 100 hours/crew/year, surely it would be better to use a different platform and add or integrate SAR to/with an existing operation? SAPL DHC8s or RAAF P3s would at least provide aircrew with lots of practice. How does the cost compare? Who cares. It's only tax payer's money.
George
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Interesting to see the EA is saying observers will be on 50k... don't see who would take such low pay for a relatively skilled job? stores guys make that easy... anyone know if it is modeled on the SAPL EA?
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I believe the idea of using the 604's is for endurance/ range/ speed...
after MH370 went missing and biz jets where charted for the search as the 328 lacks range- it was obviously realized the dash 8 simple doesn't have the range and speed for a search/ rescue far out to sea....
from what I heard the Orion's are being replaced with specially built global hawks in the distant future... probably within the 20year contract term...
after MH370 went missing and biz jets where charted for the search as the 328 lacks range- it was obviously realized the dash 8 simple doesn't have the range and speed for a search/ rescue far out to sea....
from what I heard the Orion's are being replaced with specially built global hawks in the distant future... probably within the 20year contract term...
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supermouse3
I might be going out on a limb here, but I am pretty certain the 604 type was decided well before MH 370.
But to reminisce, it was probably only some 20 years ago search and rescue was ad hoc to several GA companies running around mostly in 402,s and PA31's.
I might be going out on a limb here, but I am pretty certain the 604 type was decided well before MH 370.
But to reminisce, it was probably only some 20 years ago search and rescue was ad hoc to several GA companies running around mostly in 402,s and PA31's.
Not even that long ago Bear. I remember doing the search pattern training with Ausar in 2007 in a C402 in Western Qld.
Not sure if they still have the various tiers for SAR?
morno
Not sure if they still have the various tiers for SAR?
morno