METRON ML
METRON ML
Here we go ML are now to get the METRON (COBT) system so we will all perhaps not get the usual slow down hold ect.
This system is about as useful as tits on a bull for Syd & Brissy!
Love a dollar for every time we launch as per the COBT only to get holding, slowed down enroute & even the classic at Blaka....cancel the hold trk direct to xxx max speed!!!
Good job QF owns the sky otherwise it would be doomed a lot quicker!
Gotta luv the Aussie ATC system
Wmk2
This system is about as useful as tits on a bull for Syd & Brissy!
Love a dollar for every time we launch as per the COBT only to get holding, slowed down enroute & even the classic at Blaka....cancel the hold trk direct to xxx max speed!!!
Good job QF owns the sky otherwise it would be doomed a lot quicker!
Gotta luv the Aussie ATC system
Wmk2
Yep. I've always wondered why they can't just give us a STAR time. I know slot times are constantly changing but I'm sure it could be adapted to be more efficient than what we have now.
Nothing worse than leaving on your COBT to then get 30 mins holding. That's 30 mins I could have been relaxing on the ground having a read (of company ops
)
Give me a time to arrive at BLAKA or MLY or whatever it is and I'll be there. Surely that would make it easier for them planning wise.
Also, get some god damned LNAV STARS in BNE so we can all travel the same track over the ground and keep a constant speed and therefore distance from the guys in front and behind.
Nothing worse than leaving on your COBT to then get 30 mins holding. That's 30 mins I could have been relaxing on the ground having a read (of company ops
)Give me a time to arrive at BLAKA or MLY or whatever it is and I'll be there. Surely that would make it easier for them planning wise.
Also, get some god damned LNAV STARS in BNE so we can all travel the same track over the ground and keep a constant speed and therefore distance from the guys in front and behind.
Hey 'JR' I wondered how long this little ATC trap would capture you buddy
I never mentioned the guys behind the consuls, you blokes are ham strung there.
I know it's all about infrastructure but if we could only take a leaf out of the Yanks book we might have a chance.
The tenure of any Govt being only 3 yrs if they are lucky means no one needs to think beyond that time frame. The Airport owners as you say they couldn't give a stuff the longer the delays re flights in & out the more $$$ they make having the cars parked longer & the shops patronized more whilst waiting around, cunning
It's always a band-aid fix for Oz
Wmk2
I never mentioned the guys behind the consuls, you blokes are ham strung there.
I know it's all about infrastructure but if we could only take a leaf out of the Yanks book we might have a chance.
The tenure of any Govt being only 3 yrs if they are lucky means no one needs to think beyond that time frame. The Airport owners as you say they couldn't give a stuff the longer the delays re flights in & out the more $$$ they make having the cars parked longer & the shops patronized more whilst waiting around, cunning
It's always a band-aid fix for Oz
Wmk2
Since we've gone to it and had COBT for departures to BNE, holding has been reduced significantly. I haven't experienced too many bad delays on the ground waiting for the COBT either. I'd rather sit on the ground delayed for 20 mins than fly around in circles for 30+, which was a regular occurrence in 2012.
Wow.
My experience is the opposite. Sydney was the worst place in Aus for holding ->gets Metron-> holding almost non existent. Brisbane then becomes a holding nightmare, remember the thread that was on here 18 months ago re BNE holding times? It disappeared around the time Metron was brought in. I guess that was all coincidence. Carry on.
My experience is the opposite. Sydney was the worst place in Aus for holding ->gets Metron-> holding almost non existent. Brisbane then becomes a holding nightmare, remember the thread that was on here 18 months ago re BNE holding times? It disappeared around the time Metron was brought in. I guess that was all coincidence. Carry on.
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You need to remember the variables before you bag the system too hard. You hold on the ground in based on the expected landing rate at your destination. Throw in a wind change, or anything unforecast for that matter, a priority flight, CPA commencing descent at 200nm.....it will never be perfect while multiple flights all plan the same arrival time.
I hear where some of you guys are coming, maybe you fly for QF who have market share (for now) of the airspace as well
I'd also like a dollar for every-time you get held going into Brissy at their 2nd Airport then when you join the ILS for say 01 there ain't a plane within cooey!!!
Holding into Syd is spasmodic as is ML, lots of slow down enroute but seem to get held into ML more than Syd these days.
Best way to do this is build a plane that carry's 800 boguns (4x B737/A320), make a time for arrival into say Syd from ML once every half hour then stick to it.
Wmk2
I'd also like a dollar for every-time you get held going into Brissy at their 2nd Airport then when you join the ILS for say 01 there ain't a plane within cooey!!!
Holding into Syd is spasmodic as is ML, lots of slow down enroute but seem to get held into ML more than Syd these days.
Best way to do this is build a plane that carry's 800 boguns (4x B737/A320), make a time for arrival into say Syd from ML once every half hour then stick to it.
Wmk2
Metron is good. Working well here. Airborne delays a lot less. Enviro-nazis like the slow-down-in-the-cruise-to-make-your-feeder-fix-time bit, too.
Miles easier than trying to make a STAR time from startup (Fonz) if you're trying to deal with loading punters (not to mention various bugsmashers that get in the way before takeoff and completely blow your TOT...
You should shut down your engines...or do you need them for air? 
Miles easier than trying to make a STAR time from startup (Fonz) if you're trying to deal with loading punters (not to mention various bugsmashers that get in the way before takeoff and completely blow your TOT...
Originally Posted by FalconX
Yeah but we're burning more money on the ground than in the air
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 3rd Mar 2014 at 08:40. Reason: stupid computer made a mistake.
The entire ATC system in this country has been informed by the capabilities (or lack of, more correctly) of the Maestro system installed what? 22 years ago? I am told by an ATCO that pop-up flights can cause every approaching arrival to get shuffled back by a slot.
Since the entire terminal arrival route structure was built around metering fixes it eludes me why we cannot just get a fix crossing slot time hours before our arrival. Local fine-tuning can be accomplished by some delaying tactic, then a quick squirt into the slot.
And being 12 miles behind the guy in front after holding makes me pretty cranky.
As has been pointed out the few runways are the limiting resource. Why then does ATC not optimise the arrivals four or five miles in trail? Or, in times of peak departures, a reliable 7 or 8?
It takes me about 36 seconds to land and vacate a runway. In that time the following traffic has moved what? 1.7 miles zero wind 737? Even a lethargic and hesitant international arrival only takes about 75 seconds and could be anticipated. No? (I may be living in the past- and would like to hear if I am wrong, and why)
The tempo of arrivals at any major European or North American aerodrome demonstrates a true appreciation of the scarcity of runways. They really are way too valuable to be choked by an arrival rate that does not elevate the pulse of everyone concerned.
Since the entire terminal arrival route structure was built around metering fixes it eludes me why we cannot just get a fix crossing slot time hours before our arrival. Local fine-tuning can be accomplished by some delaying tactic, then a quick squirt into the slot.
And being 12 miles behind the guy in front after holding makes me pretty cranky.
As has been pointed out the few runways are the limiting resource. Why then does ATC not optimise the arrivals four or five miles in trail? Or, in times of peak departures, a reliable 7 or 8?
It takes me about 36 seconds to land and vacate a runway. In that time the following traffic has moved what? 1.7 miles zero wind 737? Even a lethargic and hesitant international arrival only takes about 75 seconds and could be anticipated. No? (I may be living in the past- and would like to hear if I am wrong, and why)
The tempo of arrivals at any major European or North American aerodrome demonstrates a true appreciation of the scarcity of runways. They really are way too valuable to be choked by an arrival rate that does not elevate the pulse of everyone concerned.
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why do we repeatedly get, "Min speed, hold", then half way around the hold, "Cancel holding request best speed to the field..."?
Maestro system installed what? 22 years ago?
And being 12 miles behind the guy in front after holding makes me pretty cranky.
Interestingly the NATS report on RWY optimisation covered RWY occupancy in considerable detail as an area of improvement.
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...n1-1334810.pdf
PS remember that METRON is a US system (although apparently owned by AIRBUS).
Last edited by Nautilus Blue; 3rd Mar 2014 at 10:26.
How much fuel is being dragged around the skies in the form of holding fuel so that some airport operators can not build runways? TEMPO plus 40 mins holding for a 1.5hr flight with a flight fuel of 4 tones, it's bullish!t. And the Metron system solves none of it.
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Wal-star, I wasn't commenting on ATC
Compressor Stall, there are so many variables I'd find it difficult to list them! I did arrivals (where you get the inner holding, the sector immediately prior to approach) for a few years but don't anymore, my answers may not be completely accurate, some reasons but not limited to:
Feeder fixes get stuffed up all the time, by ATC & aircraft, I'm not having a crack but mainly by aircraft. When I was doing arrivals if you issued a feeder fix for the aircraft to meet on completion of holding patterns, forget about it, useless. Our particular sector used to drive you out of the pattern. After a bit of experience you knew when the aircraft wasn't going to make it out on time, you'd cancel the hold, turn them in earlier than the pilot would. It doesn't sound like much but I can't stress this enough..........if you are even 15 seconds late out of the fix it can have a significant effect on those behind. You don't just push everybody out by 15 seconds, it compounds. Here's the clincher, if a feeder fix is completely farked up the flow might move one up a slot, and the one who stuffed the slot time back. It ain't about punishing the aircraft, it just may work better that way.
Other reasons, some aircraft do a max speed 'better' than others, freeing up a bit of room in the sequence. Rather than sit there with a big gap because of this they'll try and maximise the sequence. Weather may affect the acceptance rate, if there's a significant, rapid improvement the flow may up the rate (planes closer together). Some aircraft will accept track shortening off the star, some flatly refuse.
Controllers get a real buzz & great satisfaction from doing a great job BUT.........they protect their licence with zeal, it's their livelihood, incidents, BOS aren't fun. You won't get controllers running 5 miles (en-route) or 3 miles (TMA) too often, wind shear can see you lose that & get you stood down. Like pilots, some ATC's are better than others.
Mate, I could write another 5 pages on this. The main problems aren't pilots or ATC it's the garbage on the side that we both have to deal with!
Compressor Stall, there are so many variables I'd find it difficult to list them! I did arrivals (where you get the inner holding, the sector immediately prior to approach) for a few years but don't anymore, my answers may not be completely accurate, some reasons but not limited to:
Feeder fixes get stuffed up all the time, by ATC & aircraft, I'm not having a crack but mainly by aircraft. When I was doing arrivals if you issued a feeder fix for the aircraft to meet on completion of holding patterns, forget about it, useless. Our particular sector used to drive you out of the pattern. After a bit of experience you knew when the aircraft wasn't going to make it out on time, you'd cancel the hold, turn them in earlier than the pilot would. It doesn't sound like much but I can't stress this enough..........if you are even 15 seconds late out of the fix it can have a significant effect on those behind. You don't just push everybody out by 15 seconds, it compounds. Here's the clincher, if a feeder fix is completely farked up the flow might move one up a slot, and the one who stuffed the slot time back. It ain't about punishing the aircraft, it just may work better that way.
Other reasons, some aircraft do a max speed 'better' than others, freeing up a bit of room in the sequence. Rather than sit there with a big gap because of this they'll try and maximise the sequence. Weather may affect the acceptance rate, if there's a significant, rapid improvement the flow may up the rate (planes closer together). Some aircraft will accept track shortening off the star, some flatly refuse.
Controllers get a real buzz & great satisfaction from doing a great job BUT.........they protect their licence with zeal, it's their livelihood, incidents, BOS aren't fun. You won't get controllers running 5 miles (en-route) or 3 miles (TMA) too often, wind shear can see you lose that & get you stood down. Like pilots, some ATC's are better than others.
Mate, I could write another 5 pages on this. The main problems aren't pilots or ATC it's the garbage on the side that we both have to deal with!
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Going into SY the only time I'd give SY APP less than 10n/m out of the stack is if I've made a mistake. I aim for 10-12 miles (depending on RW configuration)with little to no closing, which is about 2 min between aircraft.
Had an instance the other day where an inbound aircraft had a 6 minute delay. I gave min speed in the cruise, 250kts upon transition, expect vectors. Just as I turned the AC onto a vector, the A/C my guy was following onto 16L (inbound from a different direction and sector) was a bit too far back for his slot and due turbulence couldn't give 320kts to catch up, and all of a sudden my A/C gets increased to max, cancel speed, track direct to...nature of an ever evolving sequence.
We're always fully aware that we've already told you to slow down, and that it increases your workload. I personally generally try to hold off on any delaying action until I am sure of the delay, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
Keep up the good work everyone.
TD80
Had an instance the other day where an inbound aircraft had a 6 minute delay. I gave min speed in the cruise, 250kts upon transition, expect vectors. Just as I turned the AC onto a vector, the A/C my guy was following onto 16L (inbound from a different direction and sector) was a bit too far back for his slot and due turbulence couldn't give 320kts to catch up, and all of a sudden my A/C gets increased to max, cancel speed, track direct to...nature of an ever evolving sequence.
We're always fully aware that we've already told you to slow down, and that it increases your workload. I personally generally try to hold off on any delaying action until I am sure of the delay, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
Keep up the good work everyone.
TD80