MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
1. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
2. The Government must not throw good money after bad. For it to even contemplate such an idea would require a change of strategy and the resignation or removal of the entire Board and Senior management.
To put that another way, the people and their strategies that got Qantas into this mess, by definition cannot get it out of the mire, and must not be allowed to even try.
3. Virgin must be afforded the same treatment as Qantas else they have what is virtually a lay down miserere high court case or more likely an appeal to the world trade organisation.
4. Every state government bar NSW and perhaps QLD is going to scream blue murder if QANTAS is bailed out while their own industries (eg: motor industry) is allowed to go to the wall. Given the treatment by Qantas of Victoria, I would hope they are first in line to complain. QANTAS is totally Sydney - centric which is why Albo is involved.
5. There may be another attempt to privatise Qantas. I wouldn't be surprised if Dixon and Co. hasn't sounded out Emirates owners (Dubai royal family?) about a joint venture - bowing to necessity. Singletons teeth gnashing session when the Emirates tie up was announced gave the game away as to what was intended for Qantas. The logical thing for Dixon and Co todo would have been to make peace with Emirates.
The question then for Emirates would be if Dixon, Singleton and Carnegie could add enough value to make it attractive and also develop a working relationship. There may be other questions I don't understand.
6. Whatever the outcome, Joyce is dead meat, swinging in the breeze, and Clifford too. As I have repeatedly said, the essay into Asia was always going to be a disaster as is the entire idea of a "group" structure. God knows, the fights at Ansett between the state airlines and mainline were bad enough, god knows how bad the ones within the Qantas "group" must be, but they have to be worse.
To put that another way, if you are a profitable part of the "group" (by real management accounting standards) how galling is it going to be to see the millions of capital you thirst for being pissed up against the wall on some Asian pipe dream?
2. The Government must not throw good money after bad. For it to even contemplate such an idea would require a change of strategy and the resignation or removal of the entire Board and Senior management.
To put that another way, the people and their strategies that got Qantas into this mess, by definition cannot get it out of the mire, and must not be allowed to even try.
3. Virgin must be afforded the same treatment as Qantas else they have what is virtually a lay down miserere high court case or more likely an appeal to the world trade organisation.
4. Every state government bar NSW and perhaps QLD is going to scream blue murder if QANTAS is bailed out while their own industries (eg: motor industry) is allowed to go to the wall. Given the treatment by Qantas of Victoria, I would hope they are first in line to complain. QANTAS is totally Sydney - centric which is why Albo is involved.
5. There may be another attempt to privatise Qantas. I wouldn't be surprised if Dixon and Co. hasn't sounded out Emirates owners (Dubai royal family?) about a joint venture - bowing to necessity. Singletons teeth gnashing session when the Emirates tie up was announced gave the game away as to what was intended for Qantas. The logical thing for Dixon and Co todo would have been to make peace with Emirates.
The question then for Emirates would be if Dixon, Singleton and Carnegie could add enough value to make it attractive and also develop a working relationship. There may be other questions I don't understand.
6. Whatever the outcome, Joyce is dead meat, swinging in the breeze, and Clifford too. As I have repeatedly said, the essay into Asia was always going to be a disaster as is the entire idea of a "group" structure. God knows, the fights at Ansett between the state airlines and mainline were bad enough, god knows how bad the ones within the Qantas "group" must be, but they have to be worse.
To put that another way, if you are a profitable part of the "group" (by real management accounting standards) how galling is it going to be to see the millions of capital you thirst for being pissed up against the wall on some Asian pipe dream?
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I'm surprised Anonymous haven't visited AJ yet?
Then again, I hope they don't, he will probably blame the Pilots and Engineers as being the faces behind the masks!
https://m.facebook.com/OffiziellAnon...lAnonymousPage
Then again, I hope they don't, he will probably blame the Pilots and Engineers as being the faces behind the masks!
https://m.facebook.com/OffiziellAnon...lAnonymousPage
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Whatever the outcome I have to agree with Sunfish, surely Joyce and Clifford are the dead meat, they are the ones that have pushed the company into that hole... They are paid the big bucks and they failed, now surely the shareholders will fob the off...
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Cosgrove for GG
Wonder how the Government might be feeling about their intention to nominate Qantas Board member Peter Cosgrove (the ADF equivalent of speed skater Steven Bradbury) as the next Governor-General? Clearly his complete lack of value on the QF Board will make him a suitably hands-off GG...
Quite enjoyed JB's speech today.
I think 'Al' has opened a can of worms for himself. Maybe he knows something we don't. Maybe this is about to go seriously pear shaped. Come on Al, bring on the line in the sand. Keep it up. How I wish I could find that interview where he said that Virgin wasn't even considered a competitor.
Instead of signing a petition in support of Al you should have signed one to oust him. Short memories indeed.
I think 'Al' has opened a can of worms for himself. Maybe he knows something we don't. Maybe this is about to go seriously pear shaped. Come on Al, bring on the line in the sand. Keep it up. How I wish I could find that interview where he said that Virgin wasn't even considered a competitor.
Instead of signing a petition in support of Al you should have signed one to oust him. Short memories indeed.
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So many mixed messages
Qantas heads for more turbulence under watch of credit agencies
The Australian 30-11-2013
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
Then in the same paper this headline
Joe Hockey to resist stake in Qantas
For me too, the message is confusing, just what does AJ want? I agree with the writer Steve Creedy, Qantas is not close to failing yet, but some people may believe it is about to with all the mad mixed messages that have flooded the media the last 10 days, and frightening the hell out of the already battle weary Q staff in the process. It's outrageous!
The whole thing has been badly mishandled by the Qantas management, and this time quite frankly, once too many times, everyone is probably just sick and tired of it, another crisis at Qantas.
People are waking up this morning and thinking, "oh here we go again, that Joyce bloke at Qantas is jumping up and down again because things aren't going his way."
Both major Australian Airlines are suffering tough market conditions and is probably the same for many other airlines around the world at present, the difference is, (unlike Qantas management who throw their arms up in the air shouting how unfair it all is,) the other airlines knuckle down and get on with it!
I feel for all the front line staff at Q group including J* who this weekend have to front the punters with questions from them like "what's going on, are things really so bad?" or "are you going broke?" or even worse, stuff like "I'm not bailing you out with my tax money" etc etc... and all so unnecessary..
The Australian 30-11-2013
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
CREDIT agencies will be watching Qantas for a further deterioration in its operations or a material dilution in its cash position when the airline finally reveals how badly its fortunes have waned.
Traffic figures for last month released yesterday showed revenue load factors were lower than the previous October as the headwinds analysts have been flagging for some time continued. While group passenger numbers were up 3.2 per cent on the previous year, traffic in terms of the number of passengers and kilometres flown -- revenue passenger kilometres -- fell as capacity increased.
This pushed the group revenue seat factor down 2.1 percentage points to 77.7 per cent.
Load factors fell in all units, with domestic (excluding QantasLink) down 1.4 points, QantasLink down 3.8 points, Jetstar falling 0.5 points and Qantas International down 3.6 points. Jetstar International was off 1.9 points while Jetstar Asia was down 0.9 points.
The airline also revealed that group yields were lower for the financial year to date compared with the previous corresponding period, with falls in both international and domestic operations reflecting "challenging market conditions".
Domestic yields had been affected by continued market capacity growth and weak demand, it said.
The figures underscore recent comments by analysts that a hard landing is looming for the airline.
Qantas sparked a series of downgrades when it told its annual meeting that it expected a group-wide yield decline of 2-3 per cent in the current financial half.
"The softness in the economy is clearly taking a toll on Qantas. However, the weakness appears to be more widespread across the business," said the Macquarie Equities team led by Ian Myles, adding that the domestic business still had too much capacity.
"Regional yields are being impacted by increased competition from rival Virgin Australia, while sluggish demand and corporate pricing pressure is affecting yields at the front end of the cabin in international operations."
A number of other analysts have since downgraded their forecasts and suggested there would be little hope of a recovery for the airline in the near future.
A government equity injection or guarantee could help the airline retain its investment grade rating, the loss of which could boost its borrowing costs by $120 million.
Moody's rates the airline at Baa3/P-3 with a stable outlook, according to a note last month, which it said reflected the airline's "dominant and defensible domestic position along with its significant international network".
Further underpinning the rating was the airline's strong liquidity as well as a track record of productivity improvements and cost reductions.
It also got brownie points for carrying more cash, about $2.8 billion on June 30, through the uncertain operating cycle. But it also reflected key challenges such as a fragile operating environment and weak yield growth, particularly on international routes.
Like the analysts, Moody's expected yield growth to be challenged by the highly competitive and weaker demand environment with rises over the next 12-18 months flat to slightly positive.
It warned that the rating could face negative pressure if the airline's major markets suffered any economic strife, including in the domestic market.
Other factors were materially higher fuel prices or capital expenditure or a decline in its current cash position.
The federal government appears to be spilt on what it should do about Qantas and nearly everyone is confused about what the airline actually wants.
A mooted 10 per cent stake in the airline by the government would not be without precedent, but would be unusual because Qantas is not close to failing.
Airlines that have been rescued by governments -- including Air New Zealand, Hungary's Malev and South America's Aerolineas Argentinas -- have usually been in dire straits.
In the case of Air New Zealand, the New Zealand government put up $NZ726m for an 83 per cent stake in its crippled carrier as it was being dragged down by its 100 per cent acquisition of Ansett Australia. The Australian government did not follow suit when Ansett was cast adrift and went into liquidation.
Then prime minister John Howard would later say the government was resolved that it would not bail out the carrier.
"There was growing pressure for this but there was no way we would entertain it," he said in his autobiography.
"I knew that we would need to do something about the entitlements but a capital injection or a government guarantee was out of the question." my bold
Traffic figures for last month released yesterday showed revenue load factors were lower than the previous October as the headwinds analysts have been flagging for some time continued. While group passenger numbers were up 3.2 per cent on the previous year, traffic in terms of the number of passengers and kilometres flown -- revenue passenger kilometres -- fell as capacity increased.
This pushed the group revenue seat factor down 2.1 percentage points to 77.7 per cent.
Load factors fell in all units, with domestic (excluding QantasLink) down 1.4 points, QantasLink down 3.8 points, Jetstar falling 0.5 points and Qantas International down 3.6 points. Jetstar International was off 1.9 points while Jetstar Asia was down 0.9 points.
The airline also revealed that group yields were lower for the financial year to date compared with the previous corresponding period, with falls in both international and domestic operations reflecting "challenging market conditions".
Domestic yields had been affected by continued market capacity growth and weak demand, it said.
The figures underscore recent comments by analysts that a hard landing is looming for the airline.
Qantas sparked a series of downgrades when it told its annual meeting that it expected a group-wide yield decline of 2-3 per cent in the current financial half.
"The softness in the economy is clearly taking a toll on Qantas. However, the weakness appears to be more widespread across the business," said the Macquarie Equities team led by Ian Myles, adding that the domestic business still had too much capacity.
"Regional yields are being impacted by increased competition from rival Virgin Australia, while sluggish demand and corporate pricing pressure is affecting yields at the front end of the cabin in international operations."
A number of other analysts have since downgraded their forecasts and suggested there would be little hope of a recovery for the airline in the near future.
A government equity injection or guarantee could help the airline retain its investment grade rating, the loss of which could boost its borrowing costs by $120 million.
Moody's rates the airline at Baa3/P-3 with a stable outlook, according to a note last month, which it said reflected the airline's "dominant and defensible domestic position along with its significant international network".
Further underpinning the rating was the airline's strong liquidity as well as a track record of productivity improvements and cost reductions.
It also got brownie points for carrying more cash, about $2.8 billion on June 30, through the uncertain operating cycle. But it also reflected key challenges such as a fragile operating environment and weak yield growth, particularly on international routes.
Like the analysts, Moody's expected yield growth to be challenged by the highly competitive and weaker demand environment with rises over the next 12-18 months flat to slightly positive.
It warned that the rating could face negative pressure if the airline's major markets suffered any economic strife, including in the domestic market.
Other factors were materially higher fuel prices or capital expenditure or a decline in its current cash position.
The federal government appears to be spilt on what it should do about Qantas and nearly everyone is confused about what the airline actually wants.
A mooted 10 per cent stake in the airline by the government would not be without precedent, but would be unusual because Qantas is not close to failing.
Airlines that have been rescued by governments -- including Air New Zealand, Hungary's Malev and South America's Aerolineas Argentinas -- have usually been in dire straits.
In the case of Air New Zealand, the New Zealand government put up $NZ726m for an 83 per cent stake in its crippled carrier as it was being dragged down by its 100 per cent acquisition of Ansett Australia. The Australian government did not follow suit when Ansett was cast adrift and went into liquidation.
Then prime minister John Howard would later say the government was resolved that it would not bail out the carrier.
"There was growing pressure for this but there was no way we would entertain it," he said in his autobiography.
"I knew that we would need to do something about the entitlements but a capital injection or a government guarantee was out of the question." my bold
Joe Hockey to resist stake in Qantas
Joe Hockey to resist stake in Qantas
SENIOR ministers are resisting pressure to inject taxpayer funds into Qantas to prop up the national carrier, as its rivalry with Virgin Australia erupts into open warfare.
Joe Hockey told The Weekend Australian last night that "of course, the government is very, very reluctant to own an airline", and Transport Minister Warren Truss ruled out providing taxpayer relief to bankroll an air war between the two carriers.
SENIOR ministers are resisting pressure to inject taxpayer funds into Qantas to prop up the national carrier, as its rivalry with Virgin Australia erupts into open warfare.
Joe Hockey told The Weekend Australian last night that "of course, the government is very, very reluctant to own an airline", and Transport Minister Warren Truss ruled out providing taxpayer relief to bankroll an air war between the two carriers.
The whole thing has been badly mishandled by the Qantas management, and this time quite frankly, once too many times, everyone is probably just sick and tired of it, another crisis at Qantas.
People are waking up this morning and thinking, "oh here we go again, that Joyce bloke at Qantas is jumping up and down again because things aren't going his way."
Both major Australian Airlines are suffering tough market conditions and is probably the same for many other airlines around the world at present, the difference is, (unlike Qantas management who throw their arms up in the air shouting how unfair it all is,) the other airlines knuckle down and get on with it!
I feel for all the front line staff at Q group including J* who this weekend have to front the punters with questions from them like "what's going on, are things really so bad?" or "are you going broke?" or even worse, stuff like "I'm not bailing you out with my tax money" etc etc... and all so unnecessary..
Last edited by TIMA9X; 30th Nov 2013 at 13:57.
short flights long nights
And remember that it is very easy for perception to overtake reality to become perceived reality. And then it all becomes self fulfilling. AJ may have just opened a bigger can of worms than he realises.
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it is very easy for perception to overtake reality to become perceived reality. And then it all becomes self fulfilling. AJ may have just opened a bigger can of worms than he realises.
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I do find it confusing and a little bit funny that Joe is telling the states sell off your assets because we don't/want to give you money or fund your projects, but hey look AJ is crying (the poor little baby spilled his milk) we better buy or at least say we will buy 10% of a poorly run company so that they can maintain their credit rating! Sorry but WTF?
The way QF operate with 1star as a wholly owned company the money thrown at it and the creative accounting is fantastic to say the least.
When I try and do that with my personal tax return I get a fine and have to pay the ATO more money, but when a major company does it they get tax credits and then when the proverbial hits the fan oh we should sell it back to the government.
Many airlines have had issues over the last 10+ years, many other airlines have had delays due to aircraft deliveries. QF took the money and spent the penalties on J* they bet big they lost big, forst they blamed intl now domestic never have I seen any blame on J*???? WHy is that?
ANZ delayed with 787 they got money from Boeing they spent it on the aircraft they spent it on the people and the service.
767's got winglets, better IFE and 320's got IFE you don't hear them crying oh it's not my fault!
They have had competition in NZ for years they stayed mobile, QF has had an easy ride for a decade. Now VA has a REAL leader someone that happens to know the inside working of his competitor and isn't afraid of taking a few risks.
He has engaged his staff, what has AJ done since taking the helm??
Grounded his fleet of QF aircraft but not J*,
pissed off all his workers,
pissed off his stock holders,
stopped paying dividends,
no real plans for fleet renewal,
gave away most intl flights to the very people he was complaining about,
started a few low cost bases in asia from all rumours they are a massive failure,
said he would start a premium narrow body airline in asia, (Fail)
shut down all his maintenance in Victoria,
sacked many engineers,
Have I missed anything?
Yes mr Abbott and Mr Hockey please give this fumbling baffoon my tax money.
We don't need to improve our roads, teach or kids, or help the dissabled, or treat the ill in hospitals.
We need to protect your access to the chairmans lounge your free first ckass tickets and free gifts from QF.
That is much more important.
WTF has happened to this world where if you fail because you are greedy or inept at what you are meant to do you are rewarded with a bail out or a promotion.
The way QF operate with 1star as a wholly owned company the money thrown at it and the creative accounting is fantastic to say the least.
When I try and do that with my personal tax return I get a fine and have to pay the ATO more money, but when a major company does it they get tax credits and then when the proverbial hits the fan oh we should sell it back to the government.
Many airlines have had issues over the last 10+ years, many other airlines have had delays due to aircraft deliveries. QF took the money and spent the penalties on J* they bet big they lost big, forst they blamed intl now domestic never have I seen any blame on J*???? WHy is that?
ANZ delayed with 787 they got money from Boeing they spent it on the aircraft they spent it on the people and the service.
767's got winglets, better IFE and 320's got IFE you don't hear them crying oh it's not my fault!
They have had competition in NZ for years they stayed mobile, QF has had an easy ride for a decade. Now VA has a REAL leader someone that happens to know the inside working of his competitor and isn't afraid of taking a few risks.
He has engaged his staff, what has AJ done since taking the helm??
Grounded his fleet of QF aircraft but not J*,
pissed off all his workers,
pissed off his stock holders,
stopped paying dividends,
no real plans for fleet renewal,
gave away most intl flights to the very people he was complaining about,
started a few low cost bases in asia from all rumours they are a massive failure,
said he would start a premium narrow body airline in asia, (Fail)
shut down all his maintenance in Victoria,
sacked many engineers,
Have I missed anything?
Yes mr Abbott and Mr Hockey please give this fumbling baffoon my tax money.
We don't need to improve our roads, teach or kids, or help the dissabled, or treat the ill in hospitals.
We need to protect your access to the chairmans lounge your free first ckass tickets and free gifts from QF.
That is much more important.
WTF has happened to this world where if you fail because you are greedy or inept at what you are meant to do you are rewarded with a bail out or a promotion.
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Well said Tech-Line. What an excellent post.
If the Government put one dime up to help this slimy, greedy poor excuse for a group of humans(AJ & the whole QF board), I'm done with both of the major political parties. They do not govern for a fair and democratic Australia. I feel for the Qantas employees who do a great job, but I know damn well if the shoe was on the VA foot, the Govt would not even entertain the thought of a bail out.
The sad thing is that even if the entire, or part of the board are relieved of their duties, they will go off and live happily ever after. The money and bonuses they are paid are never relative to what they achieve during their mantra. And Alan Joyce and his cronies have achieved only what Tech-Line outlined in his post.
Again, well said.
If the Government put one dime up to help this slimy, greedy poor excuse for a group of humans(AJ & the whole QF board), I'm done with both of the major political parties. They do not govern for a fair and democratic Australia. I feel for the Qantas employees who do a great job, but I know damn well if the shoe was on the VA foot, the Govt would not even entertain the thought of a bail out.
The sad thing is that even if the entire, or part of the board are relieved of their duties, they will go off and live happily ever after. The money and bonuses they are paid are never relative to what they achieve during their mantra. And Alan Joyce and his cronies have achieved only what Tech-Line outlined in his post.
Again, well said.
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If Australians want to have a national carrier then they'll have to foot the bill and buy back in. Its that simple. Many other countries have government backed national carriers. Call it unfair but the reality is that its not a good look for a national carrier to go broke. I am not saying that's a good idea though. Personally I don't think it should ever have been privatised.
Or, the government I could let it go broke then rescue it from the ashes with a new premium but lower cost model. Then go kick some serious rear end. Australians are generally proud of Qantas but it was doomed from the day it was privatised, way too many irrelevant departments and programs that reek of a government department hangover from the 90's.
If they don't want to pay the bill then set it free & see what happens. But accept that next time services are suspended it might not be temporary.
SN
Or, the government I could let it go broke then rescue it from the ashes with a new premium but lower cost model. Then go kick some serious rear end. Australians are generally proud of Qantas but it was doomed from the day it was privatised, way too many irrelevant departments and programs that reek of a government department hangover from the 90's.
If they don't want to pay the bill then set it free & see what happens. But accept that next time services are suspended it might not be temporary.
SN
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The federal government appears to be spilt on what it should do about Qantas and nearly everyone is confused about what the airline actually wants.
this clown hasn't got a clue. when he thinks he's close to being found out, he manufactures another calamity.
agree wholeheartedly with tech-line.
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Surely little Al can't continue after all this????????? Enough is enough! The employees and our families have had enough of this little mans antics, please tell me he is a goner with or without QF getting government support. 
It's been 5 years of one continuous roller coaster, I for one have had enough.
It's been 5 years of one continuous roller coaster, I for one have had enough.
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Oh for what might have been! Something tells me Dixen put him there to bring it down.
SN
Edit: Any government support should carry with it a seat on the board for every 5% stake.
SN
Edit: Any government support should carry with it a seat on the board for every 5% stake.
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0161; 29th Nov 2013 at 22:41.
Borghetti says in the letter “I would also note that if Virgin Australia had been afforded the benefit of such a letter, it would have enabled us to achieve superior outcomes from both the recent debt bond issue undertaken in the US market and the capital raising that is underway.”