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Truss: Aviation Safety Regulation Review

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Truss: Aviation Safety Regulation Review

Old 18th Jul 2014, 04:29
  #921 (permalink)  
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More from today's Australian.

Chris Manning says the government must investigate why Darwin, Townsville and Newcastle airports have a disproportionately high number of “loss of separation” incidents. The term is used when passenger planes pass too close together, increasing the risk of a mid-air collision.

Mr Manning, Qantas’s chief pilot between 2002 and 2008 and one of the most respected figures in Australian aviation, said while the three airports were not unsafe, they were less safe than the country’s other major airports and this was unacceptable.

“It is safe but, according to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau report, there are more incidents per (flight) movement in military airspace,” he told The Australian. “There should be no difference in the level of safety at all towered aerodromes that civil aircraft use.”
Rather refreshing to witness an epiphany, in the press, of a senior industry figure 'suddenly' seeing the light and feeling the urge to pipe up. I wonder why it took so long for the light to come on, it's not as though there hasn't been ample opportunity to 'stick an oar in' to date. Nothing to do with a series of job interviews underway at the moment is it? Nah, course not.

Anyway – news from Townsville re-fueller is that some candidates have declined to complete the process, choosing rather to depart the fix, with much flouncing of skirts and in high dudgeon than remain in the holding pattern.

But in these cases
We still have judgement here; that we but teach
Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return,
To plague the inventor; this even-handed justice
Commends the ingredients of our poisoned chalice
To our own lips.
Shall blow the horrid deed in every eye,
That tears shall drown the wind. I have no spur
To prick the sides of my intent, but only
Vaulting ambition, which o'erleaps itself
And falls on th' other.
Macbeth seems somehow more apt than Hamlet these days. Aye well, such is life...
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 14:23
  #922 (permalink)  
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A SHORTAGE of Civil Aviation Safety Authority aerodrome staff meant at least one regional airport did not receive an in-person inspection for eight years, according to a new submission to the federal government’s safety review.
Probably got something to do with the fact that CAsA traditionally focus on the flying side of things. To them, and someone like the Skull, pilots are the main focus. That's why Fort Fumble has stacks of FOI's. AWI's and airworthiness comes next, and the poor lowly Aerodrome inspectors come last. No risk at airports boys!! Airport oversight wasn't respected even back in Dick's days. He got the ball rolling by slashing the inspectorate number and it has never gotten back up to an acceptable level. CAsA, in all its stupidity, dumped SMS into the lap of aerodromes back in 2005 and said 'here you go, you need to do this', and walked away. In the meantime they hit AOC and COA operators with SMS in and around 2008 onwards, and did a better job at it. But it is only in the past year that they have gone back to looking at aerodromes. The problem is there has been minimal consultation, a lot of the aerodrome inspectors don't understand SMS, and a lot of the aerodromes, some that are pretty darn large, don't even have a safety manager, yet are meant to operate the same way as a large airline when it comes to safety management systems! There simply aren't enough aerodrome inspectors, and until CAsA gets rid of people like the Skull who think the only risk or important thing in aviation is the pointy end of a plane, there is no hope for better safety outcomes. I can assure you that there are aerodromes out there that pose a larger safety risk than some airlines or maintenance operators. And from my last recollection there are around 300 certified aerodromes, all of which should have a SMS, and as part of the SMS one must have a safety manager with relevant qualifications accord to the regs, and very few, if any, have one. So how is that compliant??
Frau Wilkie is justified in her comments about CAsA, and I am sure that you all welcome her with open arms to the IOS. Her gift pack is in the mail
Who knows, perhaps the next DAS won't have his blinkers on and will be able to see the big picture rather than just the front end of a plane?

Kharon you magnificent creature, nice pick up on the statement by Manning;
Rather refreshing to witness an epiphany, in the press, of a senior industry figure 'suddenly' seeing the light and feeling the urge to pipe up. I wonder why it took so long for the light to come on, it's not as though there hasn't been ample opportunity to 'stick an oar in' to date. Nothing to do with a series of job interviews underway at the moment is it? Nah, course not.
I believe I mentioned Herr Manning some time ago as being the Number 1 contender in the DAS race. Could this be the first of numerous public statements? Could he be now greasing the aviation wheels, slowly and subtly, preparing us for his imminent arrival, starting to massage us an inch at a time, so to speak?

No Tick Tock tonight, to be con't.............
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 21:17
  #923 (permalink)  
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By the pricking of my thumbs.

004 – "I believe I mentioned Herr Manning some time ago as being the Number 1 contender in the DAS race."
Yes, you did; but, and with all due respect to Chris Manning; is he the "type" we need as DAS? I'm sure Chris Manning is as fine a fellahin as you could wish to meet; highly qualified with a resume to match; no doubt about it. However: In troubled times, the Mafia used a war time Consigliere, in WWII, the Brits had Churchill as a war Prime Minister, cometh the hour, cometh the man and the situation within CASA must be looked on as serious trouble. Hell's bells, the waring factions alone are enough to keep a honest man awake at night.

Another major challenge is the minuscule; he had the same information available in 2008, the same troubles and the same advisors; and, apart from being six years closer to the grave; nothing has changed his disinclination to act. Perhaps the pictures from the Ukraine can show him what happens after any type of real smoking hole event and gently point out the ensuing, international and domestic ramifications.

Both the Senate and the Rev. Forsyth have clearly, unequivocally and absolutely shown that major reform is urgently required (soup to nuts). A chief Pilot of a major carrier requires a number of skills and talents; but are those traditional qualifications sufficient to comprehensibly take an angry industry into a true renaissance?

A 'Manning' type, going in 'cold' without specialised training will not spot the dodges and wheezes in time. Dealing with relatively 'honest' folk in airline operations cannot possibly prepare the candidate for a swim in the cesspool, no amount of Kevlar will protect the soft spots and learning to walk on quicksand is no easy task. Nope; with great respect for Capt. Manning he'll get eaten alive in the snake pit before the bell for round one is rung.

You must set a thief to catch a thief; we need a reformer who is capable of dragging the CASA into the light by whatever means are necessary, unafraid to spill blood, shit or snot as and when required. There's a requirement to remove three layers of morally corrupt management, before the reinstallation task can even begin. There's the incompetent, pedantic, overly aggressive FOI department to weed out, before starting to get the flight training, engineering, medical and administrative 'sheltered workshops' whipped into shape. Even then, still sitting there, mouldering away are the Hag ridden, benighted regulations.

The genetically modified, artificially inseminated abomination spawned by the McComic era will not go quietly into the night. It's very alive, dangerous and hungry. Dealing with this is not a job for polite, traditional, honest, intelligent, hard working chief pilot 'types'. Not by a country mile it ain't: it's in through the belly of the beast – and out through the daemons ass.

Disclaimer, please note; this is not in any way an attack on Chris; quite the reverse. If he is considering tackling the job he'll need every bit of help, warning and knowledge he can get....See Byron for on the job training notes; or, better still, grab a seat on the board, sit next to Boyd and support whoever is unlucky enough to fall into the snake pit.


Last edited by Kharon; 19th Jul 2014 at 00:29.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 02:35
  #924 (permalink)  
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Sales pitch v Sour Grapes plus the Chris & Dick alliance??

The Forsyth report suggested criteria for the DAS position recommended:

7. The next Director of Aviation Safety has leadership and management experience and capabilities in cultural change of large organisations. Aviation or other safety industry experience is highly desirable.
And in the Executive Summary this criteria was expanded...

"...The Panel concludes that CASA and industry need to build an effective collaborative relationship on a foundation of mutual trust and respect. Therefore, CASA needs to set a new strategic direction. The selection of a new Director of Aviation Safety should concentrate on finding an individual with leadership and change management abilities, rather than primarily aviation expertise. Other jurisdictions have appointed leaders without an aviation background, who have been successful in changing the strategic direction of the safety regulator..."

CM would have no problem with the latter part of the criteria but the 1st part could prove a major stumbling block. Discounting the Irish Bomber's bizarre attempts to bankrupt the company (& not being a Sky God myself so not really in the know), but I can't remember the last time that the Red Rat had a major cultural change within...?? Therefore maybe this isn't so much a sales pitch from CM but a case of sour grapes, either way it is certainly passing strange??

Also passing strange (& almost before the ink had dried on the CM diatribe), there was this follow up article from the Oz...
Dick Smith joins air traffic control safety row

THE former head of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, Dick Smith, has warned the Defence Minister that he could be responsible for the nation’s first jet airline crash because of the shortcomings of military air traffic controllers.

In an extraordinary letter to David Johnston, Mr Smith warns that tough decisions are needed now because it was clear that safety levels for passenger planes at the military controlled airports of Darwin, Newcastle and Townsville were inadequate.

“Minister this is a shocker!” Mr Smith writes in a letter obtained by The Weekend Australian. “I am sure you do not want to be responsible for the first jet airline fatalities in Australia’s history!

“After 30 years experience in our civil aviation history, my view is that the military simply do not have the efficiencies of scale to be able to adequately operate an acceptably safe air traffic system for civilian aircraft.”

News of Mr Smith’s letter, written last month, follows a call yesterday by former Qantas chief pilot Chris Manning for an urgent inquiry into safety at airports that are manned by military air traffic controllers.

Mr Manning, Qantas chief pilot from 2003 to 2008, is angry that the government has virtually ignored a damning Australian Transport Safety Bureau report from October last year, which found that air force controllers had a poorer safety record than their civilian counterparts. Because they are near air force bases, Darwin, Townsville and Newcastle airports are run
by military air traffic controllers despite the fact that the vast majority of planes — 94 per cent at Darwin and 88 per cent at Townsville — are civil aircraft.

Mr Smith, in a separate letter to Infrastructure Minister Warren Truss, says that travellers should be told of this fact ­before they fly into these airports.

The ATSB report found that between 2008 and 2012 military controllers controlled 25 per cent of air traffic but were involved in 36 per cent of loss of separation incidents — when planes pass too close to each other, increasing the risk of a mid-air ­collision.

Defence has defended its 250 controllers, insisting they have the same training as their civilian counterparts and that rigorous safety standards are applied to their operations. Defence disputes the findings of the ATSB report, saying that it “does not agree with an implication that the number of loss of separation per number of aircraft movements directly correlates to safety”.

“Military-controlled airspace is inherently different to civilian-controlled airspace — with high traffic peaks but low overall aircraft movement statistics, diverse aircraft types and constrained airspace — which makes the statistical comparison flawed,” a Defence spokesman said.

CASA has responded to the critical ATSB report by conducting a joint safety study of Newcastle airport, but it insists that it has a constructive relationship with Defence on safety issues.
Strange bed pals indeed..

I wonder why it took so long for the light to come on, it's not as though there hasn't been ample opportunity to 'stick an oar in' to date.
Ample opportunity indeed "K"... And I'd suggest that there have been many less controversial but no less significant examples of Fort Fumble completely ignoring (proverbial middle finger..), delaying, arguing the toss, on any bureau SSI/SR(s) addressed to the regulator in recent times. The classic example was the initially notified CSI associated with the Norfolk ditching report, that over 2 1/2 years was slowly whittled down to minor and is still outstanding in action response: AO-2009-072-SI-01
On 25 June 2012, CASA advised that amendment 36 to International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Annex 6, State Letter AN 11/1.32-12/10 detailed a number of new Standards and Recommended Practices (SARP) in regard to fuel planning, in-flight fuel management, the selection of alternates and extended diversion time operations (EDTO). In this respect, CASA provided the following update:
  • CASA intends to review Civil Aviation Advisory Publication (CAAP) 234-1 relating to fuel requirements. The ICAO fuel and alternate Standards and Recommended Practices (SARPs) are the basis of these changes and will be coordinated by CASA project OS09/13. While this project will focus specifically on passenger-carrying commercial flights the project will also be reviewing fuel requirements generally. The project will now be conducted in four phases. The first three phases will involve amendments to the relevant Civil Aviation Order (CAO) applicable Civil Aviation Advisory Publication (CAAP) 234-1 and Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 234. The project objectives are as follows:
    • Phase 1 will involve amendments to the relevant CAOs and a review of CAAP 234-1 for flights to isolated aerodromes in light of the ICAO amendments. This phase will encompass fuel and operational requirements for flights to isolated aerodromes and will also consider the provision for flight to an alternate aerodrome from a destination that is a designated isolated aerodrome. The CAAP 234-1 will also be expanded to provide guidance and considerations necessary for flights to any isolated aerodrome, in particular when, and under what circumstances, a pilot should consider a diversion.
    • Phase 2 will involve amendments to the relevant CAOs and further review of CAAP 234 in light of the ICAO amendments. This phase will encompass regulatory changes related to the implementation of general fuel planning, in-flight fuel management and the selection of alternate aerodromes. This review will include the methods by which pilots and operators calculate fuel required and fuel on-board.
    • Phase 3 will involve amendment to CAR 234 to specify that the pilot in command, or the operator, must take reasonable steps to ensure sufficient fuel and oil shall be carried to undertake and continue the flight in safety. In addition, for flights conducted in accordance with Extended Diversion Time Operations (EDTO), CAO 82 and CAR 234 shall be amended to require consideration of a "critical fuel scenario" taking into account an aeroplane system failure or malfunction which could adversely affect safety of flight. It is anticipated that the methods chosen by the pilot-in-command and operator will therefore be sufficient to meet the requirements of CAR 234 to enable a flight to be undertaken and continue in safety.
    • Phase 4 will involve the publication of internal and external educational material along with conducting briefings where necessary.
and that:
The amendment to the ICAO Annex 6 standards will be considered, and where appropriate, incorporated into the relevant legislation/advisory publication. In addition it is anticipated that there will be guidance material for operators who can demonstrate a particular level of performance-based compliance. The intent is to provide a bridge from the conventional approach to safety to the contemporary approach that uses process- based methods and Safety Risk Management (SRM) principles.

The ICAO Fuel and Flight Planning Manual are reflected in the SARP to Annex 6. Inclusion of the provisions of the Amendment 36 SARPs will be captured throughout this project. The ICAO SARP becomes effective from November 2012.

CASA will endeavour to make the changes as soon as possible - subject to third party arrangements such as drafting and resource availability. However the timing of the CAR changes will be subject to a timetable that is not necessarily able to be controlled by CASA.
This MSI is also directly relevant to the ATsB YMIA incident investigation AO-2013-100, therefore giving CM the perfect excuse to weigh in on i.e. less controversial and far more relevant...

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Old 19th Jul 2014, 03:45
  #925 (permalink)  
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interesting to me that the money that it would have cost to widen the narrow runways in outback queensland (provided it wasn't done by a corrupt operator) is probably less than the cost of all the regulatory adjustments needed to allow for operation into the deficient strips.

in the fuel requirements example in the preceding post a viable industry not subject to the embuggerance of a clueless CAsA would probably generate enough business for a remote refuelling facility to survive commercially.
a remote fuelling facility would solve all the problems completely.
in the case of whyalla the guys put in an avtur tank with 10,000 litres of fuel beside the avgas tank. in the entire life of the avtur tank they had sold 125 litres to a rex guy who decided to top up in the face of a storm at destination.
I think the local aero club took over the facility just to keep it functioning.
a viable industry would keep all this infrastructure financially viable.

CAsA you really are totally wrong in your approach. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM in australian aviation. no amount of waffle will ever fix the problems you cause.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 10:07
  #926 (permalink)  
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Grrr chris manning

I became aware of the Chris Manning blitzkrieg for both public profile and relevance while part way through breakfast. I immediately struggled with choosing between two reasons for this very belated step into the limelight: was it because Spencer Stuart had just told him that he didn't fit the Forsyth anti-pilot template or was it because the Miniscule had just told him he might?

Then I read that dribble about "one of the most respected figures in Australian aviation" and never fully recovered from the taste of vomitus, subsequently revisited on hearing of Smith's latest raving...

Maybe that was overcame Nick in the Senate - the fear that a Manning/Smith alliance might become the EXACTA (or PERFECTA)

Nonetheless, it does remain a great example of how slithering from President of AIPA across to QF Chief Pilot may look good on the CV without ever revealing competence in either role...
Prince Niccolo M is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2014, 10:33
  #927 (permalink)  
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there are no "highly respected pilots in australian aviation" it is a level playing field.
some of us anonymous guys are better pilots than any of the high profile [email protected]
flying a commercial airliner make you a pilot of a commercial airliner.
flying a mirage fighter makes you a fighter pilot (canon fodder)
flying a cessna makes you a cessna pilot.

have you ever designed a successful aeroplane?
designed a successful aero engine?
ever written a successful book on aviation?
no? you've a long way to go then.
50,000 hours in the log book. whoopee. it is all past history. hope you enjoyed it.

announce to the world that you are a respected aviator. give us a break.
go enjoy your flying and let the rest of us get on with ours. ....and stop being a tosser.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 11:02
  #928 (permalink)  
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It really doesn't matter who is assigned the lofty position of DAS; it could be Manning, Smith again, Vladamir Putin of the head of ISIS - as long as the Iron Ring remains real change will not be possible, at all, so everyone can keep clicking their heels together and dreaming of a happy place. It isn't going to happen. If we were to have another pilot captaining the CAsA ship it would be good to see someone in their mid to late 40's, almost straight out of industry, perhaps a 20 year PNG chopper veteran who really knows what the real flying world is about, someone who understands change management, all aspects of safety, technologies and operations.....and no, I have nobody specific in mind who fits that mould, I just think that is the type of character we need in charge.

All and all Manning is a good bloke, an experienced pilot, articulate, understands the game of politics and would command respect from the troops, however the sheer depth of the shit at CAsA would shock him, and the antics of the Iron Ring would bury him. Although my source has seen Manning's name high up the list of 'potential candidates', I don't believe that now is his time. Perhaps in three years time after the wrecking ball has been put through Fort Fumble, then bring in the cleaner. But unless that robust wrecking ball is released sometime soon, Captain Manning's future career would be better served at ICAO or some place where CAsA's nuclear payload cannot reach him.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 11:23
  #929 (permalink)  
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004, I have to agree with you. The "Iron Ring" and their acolytes would eat Manning for breakfast, even if he was of a mind to reform, which I doubt.
Qantas to a certain extent has failed to modernise its procedures and tends to live in the past. No doubt Manning was inured with the good old Aussie "All the rest of the world is wrong, we are right attitude, and that will be strenuously reinforced by the iron ring.

We need a reforming DAS.

The sad thing is until there is a major hull loss in Australia it more than likely won't happen.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 12:29
  #930 (permalink)  
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We need a reforming DAS.
How many have promised that. As 004 says the iron ring needs sorting.

As was discussed earlier too much focus is given to the FOI area at the expense of other areas.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 14:07
  #931 (permalink)  
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Beardless Beaker off to Malaysia to investigate MH17

What a farce, the Beaker flew out to the Ukraine today to assist with the investigation of MH17!!! Are you fing serious? What on earth could this buffoon provide by way of assistance? Perhaps he will teach the Russian separatists how to manage their budget? Is Beaker there as a 'financial adviser' and he will teach the other investigating countries how to simply not undertake the most important investigation requirements so as to save money? Perhaps he will investigate by using his 'beyond reason' methodology? Or perhaps he is there as the drinks boy and will run drinks back and forth to the real investigators?
I vote that Beaker return home immediately and go back to counting pennies, and Alan Stray be despatched immediately to the crash site. At least we would have an actual technical expert there, experienced and respected in frontline activities, rather than have that other fool over there walking around going mi mi mi mi.

P.S Has anybody warned Beaker that there will be decomposing bodies and body parts along with human effluent and other assorted nasties? I think he may be shocked at what actually lies beyond business class seats and the cushion under MrDaks desk!
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 22:18
  #932 (permalink)  
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Oh good grief!! what are they thinking!

Then again they have to put on some sort of show.

The "Investigation" will be a farce anyway. The site has been sanitised and there will be very little to find, even the victims have been interfered with.

Good old Beaker will sit around the hotel sipping Lattes, maybe do a bit of sightseeing, with a bit of luck get popped by a drunken separatist, but I doubt he'll get to see a bit of road kill, let alone anything else.

Hmm, "popped by a rebel"..maybe thats why their sending him?

Better to keep our competent investigators at home, they might be needed anytime, Tick Tock and all that...

The world already knows about beaker, so he can't embarrass us much further.

Last edited by thorn bird; 24th Jul 2014 at 10:06.
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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 10:40
  #933 (permalink)  
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Beaker is the perfect person to send to the Ukraine. He is guaranteed to come up with the party line verdict - that the Rebels shot down the aircraft.
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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 12:03
  #934 (permalink)  
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Beaker is the perfect person to send to the Ukraine. He is guaranteed to come up with the party line verdict - that the Rebels shot down the aircraft.
Perhaps Beaker will join the UN at the conclusion of his new ATsB contract? They have lots of funding and tins of money for him to shuffle, plus they also like to dress in Armani suits, sit on leather and mahogany furniture and dribble philosophical shit while society (not the ills) collapses around their ears. Perfect match!!
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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 13:05
  #935 (permalink)  
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Like he added an important piece to the Norfolk Ditching report.

"There was no fire"!!!!! A jet out of fuel, ditching!!! What else wasn't there??? Why the fcuk mention that???

Yes, it will piss me off completely when that idiot confirms what the world has known for 5 days!!

The ATC recordings will tell all, but that's for another thread.

RIP lost souls
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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 13:32
  #936 (permalink)  
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From the Air Force thread

Quote from the Air Force Media release;

"Recent media reporting on the safety of our air traffic control, has used ‘loss of separation (LOS)’ statistics from an ATSB report, and incorrectly assumed these events have a direct correlation to safety.
The ATSB report found that Moorabin and Sydney’s Kingsford Smith Airport had the highest LOS figures in Australia, yet the ATSB made no recommendations regarding either airspace. Similarly, the ATSB report made no recommendations regarding civil airspace, despite more than 80 percent of LOS occurring in that airspace.
More than 97 percent of LOS incidents in military airspace involved ‘Nil’ or ‘Minimal’ collision risk or were attributable to pilot error. Only three of the LOS incidents attributable to military air traffic control had ‘Elevated’ collision risk. By contrast, the report fails to address the 40 LOS incidents with ‘Some’ or ‘Elevated’ collision risk that occurred in civil tower/terminal Area airspace."

Easy one for the Air Force. The ATSB don't do anything these days just coffee and biccies! Chi anyone?????
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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 21:50
  #937 (permalink)  
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How; in the seven hells did anyone expect any other form of response from the Air Force Chief than this _HERE_.

Stone the bloody crows; someone buy a couple of bus tickets; get Civvy Hoody and Military Hoody together in a pub out in the bush and let them sort it out; probably have a working agreement by second beers; draft report sketched out by the fourth beers and have a good working relationship by the time wine was served with dinner.

Did you ever have an irrepressible urge to bang heads together. Bloody Beaker, catamite to the Machiavellian glee club.

(No offence Mach.E.)..
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 01:00
  #938 (permalink)  
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Oh b..b..boys you forgot your packed lunches!

Jinglie good pick up...

I too thought the statement from the CAF was a lot more than a pushback against the (passing strange) Dick/CM alliance, to me it was a direct assault on ATsBeaker's obvious bias displayed in their LOSA research paper recommendations...

004 normally I don't question your sources as they tend to be quite reliable but take a look at the following pic, borrowed courtesy of the SMH (warning bucket maybe required..):

Now despite the very different and stern look by the beardless Beaker, this doesn't look like a man about to depart for Kiev whereas the two Senior Transport Investigators very much do..

Here is a possible scenario for this phot...

The two bureau STSI gentleman tasked with the MH-17 investigation discretely meet up at the airport (notice no caps or high viz jackets with ATSB plastered all over them), the strategy being to get past the 24/7 media soundbite pack unnoticed and off the record. Enter stage left Beaker singing out.."Oh bbbboys your forgot your packed lunches!" One of the media scrum photographers picks up on the muppet in the suit and subsequently rounds up the (now) trio...Beaker whispers to the duo..."I'll handle this" and the following is a rough summation of what follows...(caution bucket maybe required again):
MH17 investigation 'could take a year'

The head of Australia's transport safety body has warned there will be no quick answers to the downing of MH17, saying it could take up to a year to complete an investigation.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau dispatched two senior investigators to Kiev on Monday to assist an international inquiry into the disaster.
But chief commissioner Martin Dolan dampened expectations of a speedy determination.

"We normally say as investigators it can take up to a year to get a firm result," he told reporters at Canberra airport.

"It's quite possible that there will be no quick response to this."

Mr Dolan said it was "disappointing and upsetting" to see Russian-backed rebels tampering with evidence at the crash site in eastern Ukraine, which has been a target of international condemnation since last week's crash.
However, he hopes basic information will still be available to investigators, whose work will be coordinated by Ukrainian authorities.

Paul Ballard, one of the two ATSB officers deployed to the Ukraine, voiced concerns about the safety of investigators in a war zone.

But he is philosophical about the way the site has been treated by rebels.
"We've got to understand this isn't a site within Australia, so it will get treated in the manner that it does in those countries," he said.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott has described the scene as "more like a garden clean-up than a forensic investigation".
Notice that Beaker was unable to muzzle that one small comment from his (highly credentialed) Senior coalface subordinate, a comment that displays the true professionalism of these two gentleman...

No that short article more than questions the cred of your source 004, my bet is that after that brief photo opportunity Beaker slinked off back to his office to happily play with his new (MH-370 funded) abacus, flicking a cursory email to RED effectively saying.."mi..mi..mi..job done!"

Coming back to this interesting development of the ADF taking on the integrity of the ATsB independence, perhaps there is more to this tale than meets the eye..

Consider this PM media release..:
Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston to lead Australia's response to MH17 investigation and recovery efforts

Monday, 21 July 2014
Prime Minister

Air Chief Marshal (retired) Angus Houston AC AFC has been appointed the Prime Minister’s Special Envoy and will lead Australia’s efforts on the ground in Ukraine to help recover, identify and repatriate Australians killed in the MH17 crash.

He will remain in Ukraine as long as necessary to complete the task.

Once the site can be accessed by international investigators, Air Chief Marshal Houston will coordinate Australia’s consular, diplomatic, disaster and crash site investigation response in Ukraine.

He will work closely with local and international authorities on consular support for the families of the Australian victims, on disaster victim identification and on the crash investigation itself.

The first priority will be to recover the remains of the victims and to secure safe and sustained access to the MH17 site.

In close cooperation with the Ukraine government, the International Civil Aviation Organisation and other international partners, Air Chief Marshal Houston will work to ensure a comprehensive investigation into the MH17 crash is swiftly underway.

To date, the Australian Government has deployed 45 officials to assist including 20 personnel from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, 20 Australian Federal Police Officers, two Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigators and three Defence officials.

The Australian Ambassador in Warsaw (who is accredited to Ukraine), a regional consular officer and embassy officials from Moscow, London and Warsaw, have also arrived in Kiev as part of Australia’s response team.
Other specialist teams are on standby for immediate deployment when access to the site is secured. A C17 military transport aircraft is on standby to depart for Ukraine.

The recovery, identification and repatriation process will be complex and will likely take a number of weeks to complete. This will be a difficult and painful period, and the families of the victims will have the Government’s full support.

Our thoughts continue to be with the families of the victims.

21 July 2014
{NB.Notice 004 there is no mention of certain muppets tagging along}

Fascinating that the PM's 'chosen one' in both Malaysian aircrash investigations is the former CAF & ADF Chief Angus Houston...

ACM (retired) Angus has more horsepower and serious cred in his little pinky than any former Comcare muppet will ever have in an entire career.

Hmm...surmising wonder if Cook and crew are part of the AH special envoy team and I bet you Senator DF can get an audience with AH with little to no effort....

Interesting times indeed...

TICK TOCK RED your taking on the big boys now!


Last edited by Sarcs; 2nd Nov 2014 at 22:08.
Sarcs is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2014, 01:21
  #939 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Downunda
Posts: 559
Oh where oh where could our Beaker be....

Sarcs, you could be right old friend. Keeping track of bureaucratic comings and goings as well as the depth of their troughs and following their labyrinth of bread crumbs is a difficult task and one that a single IOS member cannot keep up with, so perhaps I am incorrect. However my source insists that the beardless one did head overseas, so who knows for sure. Perhaps the Townsville refueller could provide the required piece of the puzzle? Or maybe Beaker will pop up on TV in Can'tberra today or tomorrow, on a Muppets special, and we will see where this chameleon of air travel truly is?

Either way, there is nothing that Beaker can do by way of helping the investigation. And if as he says it is only a 12 month investigation then obviously the Australian team are minimally involved as Beaker normally takes a good 3 years to massage his way through an investigation. But don't worry, his budget is under control and the spreadsheet and abacus will be front and center of his desk.
004wercras is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2014, 04:45
  #940 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,410
"We normally say as investigators it can take up to a year to get a firm result,"

Is beaker putting himself in the same class as actual investigators?? I thought he was a career bureaucrat! Highly skilled in A..licking, trough dwelling and bonus development. But a "Safety Investigator"???

Does anyone who joins these Govmint corporations instantly become "Experts"??

I thought only CAsA FOI's and AWI's could do that.
thorn bird is offline  

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