Brisbane Storm
Mister Warning. No doubt it may come as a shock to you but I can assure you as a simple driver you have little authority when your contract is not renewed or you have a difficult proficiency check.
Gee it's a worry reading thru these posts where the holes are getting close to lining up in the cheese.
One has to wonder standing there in the coroners court waving yr OFP about saying I was 'legal' whether that would cut it with a long list of grieving family members sitting behind you.
I also wonder if it will take a smoking hole in the ground b4 the boffins whom promulgate these idiotic idea's of min fuel always see the reasons why Capt's are given this ultimate authority to carry fuel as they see fit
The recent YMIA little fiasco is the perfect precursor to something very nasty, crazy that we humans only learn by our mistakes & only for a brief time as we soon fall back into old habits.
Intimidation now runs rife in the Airline industry, Christ what have we gotten ourselves into here?
Wmk2
One has to wonder standing there in the coroners court waving yr OFP about saying I was 'legal' whether that would cut it with a long list of grieving family members sitting behind you.
I also wonder if it will take a smoking hole in the ground b4 the boffins whom promulgate these idiotic idea's of min fuel always see the reasons why Capt's are given this ultimate authority to carry fuel as they see fit
The recent YMIA little fiasco is the perfect precursor to something very nasty, crazy that we humans only learn by our mistakes & only for a brief time as we soon fall back into old habits.
Intimidation now runs rife in the Airline industry, Christ what have we gotten ourselves into here?
Wmk2
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Even if policy dictates that the skipper is free to have the final word, in MANY places this does not happen in practice and subtle pressure is there to carry min gas. It works, there are tons of guys out there that are s%#* scared of the boss and will "do the right thing". MANY accidents, especially coming a cropper landing during a TS, are the direct result of not having plan B up the sleeve.
Industry DOES NOT CARE.
Fatigue, training, fuel carriage.......
Industry DOES NOT CARE.
Fatigue, training, fuel carriage.......
I am sure the Emirates crew had fuel for an Alternate. They are professional pilots, who have flown to many destinations beset by thunderstorms. Indeed every flight to India in the monsoon, challenges aircrew with weather. Not to mention Africa, China, Thailand,Malaysia etc etc. So the fact that the EK flight landed in Brisbane successfully, means that the crew felt the conditions were acceptable to conduct the approach and landing.
Last edited by Capn Rex Havoc; 19th Sep 2013 at 04:25.
1 Charlie-777 FCOM allows 15kts T/W, EK Ops do not differentiate for grooved RWYS (considered not to exist due to poor maintenance in many destinations),OPT has wet and contaminated calculations and 2000m well above even Cat I minimums. As long as no PWS or IWS which require avoidance/escape then, although clearly not a nice night out, no real problem.
See Birdie, there you go mentioning facts and upsetting all the ATC/East coast Oz flyer types. Overseas airlines do carry ALTNs, and holding. It would seem that it is only the Oz based ones that find the whole ATLN thing too hard to do.
So I guess the whole outcome here is that the approach was bumpy, and someone got wet putting their garbage out...did I miss anything?
The Don
So I guess the whole outcome here is that the approach was bumpy, and someone got wet putting their garbage out...did I miss anything?
The Don
Good one 'Don':-) Sounds a bit like the comment from a well known movie.........a bunch of guys got killed & we got laid...............did I miss anything?
Now I wonder whom might be able to guess what movie b4 this thread gets slammed shut!:-)
Wmk2
Now I wonder whom might be able to guess what movie b4 this thread gets slammed shut!:-)
Wmk2
"Overseas airlines do carry ALTNs, and holding..."
Alternate yes, holding, maybe not. Depends on the country and airline.
I have flown with several carriers in Asia that will file a CLOSE alternate and ZERO holding in heavy thunderstorms.
Alternate yes, holding, maybe not. Depends on the country and airline.
I have flown with several carriers in Asia that will file a CLOSE alternate and ZERO holding in heavy thunderstorms.
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T/S and probs
When I was overseas T/S could be ignored unless it resulted in vis/cld base going below Dest/Altn planning minima. Until about 7 yrs ago (from memory) Prob could be ignored regardless.
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Just a question.
How many of you would ask/demand the tower/app for holding into Brisbane if there was a TS either overhead or in the vicinity if the vis and wind was ok and within limits and everyone else was landing just fine.
Honest question here.
Like how many of you would think to yourself, that guy (EK or other) is just giving it a go and trying to land just because he doesn't have enough holding fuel and I reckon we should hold and wait because we planned, and have extra holding fuel!!!
I have flown into Brisbane many times in summer and other times where there were thunder storms around but luckily airport conditions weren't ever bad enough that we could never land.
But I have flown into many airports in Asia and elsewhere and sometimes into China where they allow approaches into severe TS where the winds and vis were outside my company's minimums and they were clearing us (and anyone else who accepted)for approach!?!?! We obviously couldn't accept the approach clearances......
I think it is hard to judge what you would have done unless you flew the exact same approach around the same time in the same conditions.
Honest question here.
Like how many of you would think to yourself, that guy (EK or other) is just giving it a go and trying to land just because he doesn't have enough holding fuel and I reckon we should hold and wait because we planned, and have extra holding fuel!!!
I have flown into Brisbane many times in summer and other times where there were thunder storms around but luckily airport conditions weren't ever bad enough that we could never land.
But I have flown into many airports in Asia and elsewhere and sometimes into China where they allow approaches into severe TS where the winds and vis were outside my company's minimums and they were clearing us (and anyone else who accepted)for approach!?!?! We obviously couldn't accept the approach clearances......
I think it is hard to judge what you would have done unless you flew the exact same approach around the same time in the same conditions.
That's a good point Coco,
We were on into YMML a while back and the runway changed three times during our descent, there were cells about and ATC chatter about lightening at the field. We were cleared for a VOR approach and leaving 6000ft could see the red on the radar sitting at about a 6 mile final, we told them we wanted to delay the approach until the weather went through and they gave us holding to the west. There had been aircraft landing in front of us and we were the only ones who elected to hold so aircraft behind us trucked on down final and landed. About ten minutes later we started our approach and didn't have to fly through the cell on final and landed fine.I was comfortable with my decision and the way it played out but the human element to it is interesting, I second guessed myself as to whether I was being too conservative but only because there were other aircraft doing approaches. If we had been the only ones within cooee I wouldn't have second guessed myself. Analysing it in the hotel room I still felt happy with the decision as there was lightening being reported striking the northern boundary of the airfield, a red cell was displayed on final with the radar in auto/cal and there were obviously gust fronts as the wind was all over the shop.
So your question
is in my mind a good one. For me personally I now consciously disregard the actions of any other aircraft in order to overcome my natural tendency to be influenced by my 'industry peers' .
We were on into YMML a while back and the runway changed three times during our descent, there were cells about and ATC chatter about lightening at the field. We were cleared for a VOR approach and leaving 6000ft could see the red on the radar sitting at about a 6 mile final, we told them we wanted to delay the approach until the weather went through and they gave us holding to the west. There had been aircraft landing in front of us and we were the only ones who elected to hold so aircraft behind us trucked on down final and landed. About ten minutes later we started our approach and didn't have to fly through the cell on final and landed fine.I was comfortable with my decision and the way it played out but the human element to it is interesting, I second guessed myself as to whether I was being too conservative but only because there were other aircraft doing approaches. If we had been the only ones within cooee I wouldn't have second guessed myself. Analysing it in the hotel room I still felt happy with the decision as there was lightening being reported striking the northern boundary of the airfield, a red cell was displayed on final with the radar in auto/cal and there were obviously gust fronts as the wind was all over the shop.
So your question
How many of you would ask/demand the tower/app for holding into Brisbane if there was a TS either overhead or in the vicinity
lightening being reported striking the northern boundary of the airfield, a red cell was displayed on final with the radar in auto/cal and there were obviously gust fronts as the wind was all over the shop
Yeah me too. Don't you think it's interesting that it is not unusual for airliners to fly through the red bits, even on final, seeing that
?
That was kind of my whole point, I thought Coco posed a good question because we ( as an industry) don't always stick to such a simple MO.
the reason we carried weather avoidance radar was to avoid the red bits.
That was kind of my whole point, I thought Coco posed a good question because we ( as an industry) don't always stick to such a simple MO.
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I heard from a VERY long term traveller and aviation employee on the EK flight lots of panicked cabin crew and pax. (Sick etc) Worst approach he's had when sitting in the cabin ever....
If it had so much fuel why not wait the 30min it takes for there fast moving storms to pass
FFRATS
If it had so much fuel why not wait the 30min it takes for there fast moving storms to pass
FFRATS
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Sat at the holding point in BKK a while ago, watching Asian and Middle Eastern airlines landing and taking off around us in heavy rain, lightning and severe gusts. For me, to wait it out was a no brainer. Amazes me the risks some crews are willing to take - and for what? To maintain a schedule? Better late than dead on time. Short on fuel? Divert. As Captains we get paid to make safe decisions. Landing in a thunderstorm is not a safe, nor sound, decision. Microbursts kill jets, and just because the guy ahead of you didn't experience one, doesn't mean you won't. They are by their very nature, unpredictable. Don't let external pressure influence your decision making. You may not live to regret it.
Been there many times in Asia and got the tee shirt....
I even had KUL APP say to me after I refused to fly through a red very active cell sitting smack on final app 14L about 8nm "Other Aircraft are flying the approach ok, why don't you?"
Needless to say we waited, in fact other Aircraft behind suddenly decided to wait as well, then I suggested they change approach to 32L which was well clear of any Cell. We landed 15 mins later on 32L.
You make your decision and stick to it.
I sat on the ground in SIN 02C about 5 years ago watching many A320 LCC's depart with driving rain 20kt x/w and active lightening strikes on the field!! I kid you not....
Brave men...
I even had KUL APP say to me after I refused to fly through a red very active cell sitting smack on final app 14L about 8nm "Other Aircraft are flying the approach ok, why don't you?"
Needless to say we waited, in fact other Aircraft behind suddenly decided to wait as well, then I suggested they change approach to 32L which was well clear of any Cell. We landed 15 mins later on 32L.
You make your decision and stick to it.
I sat on the ground in SIN 02C about 5 years ago watching many A320 LCC's depart with driving rain 20kt x/w and active lightening strikes on the field!! I kid you not....
Brave men...
Last edited by nitpicker330; 20th Sep 2013 at 13:11.