Nice bit of airmanship
First CRM course was interesting, second one was alright, now I dread them because we constantly rehash the same stuff year after year with the poor old instructors trying to find new ways to say the same thing e.g. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate became Plane, Path, People....... WOW!! what a revelation.
The best CRM course I ever attended was 3 hours of watching radar traces with ATC recordings from 'near misses' and accident reconstructions for about 3 hours followed by lively discussions of where we thought the CRM had broken down or infact been very good. I gained more out of that session that I ever have from years of having the 'reason' model explained to the class time and time again.
The best CRM course I ever attended was 3 hours of watching radar traces with ATC recordings from 'near misses' and accident reconstructions for about 3 hours followed by lively discussions of where we thought the CRM had broken down or infact been very good. I gained more out of that session that I ever have from years of having the 'reason' model explained to the class time and time again.
Some of the early CRM courses were good because they involved various team exercises that had an element of competition about them. A personality profile was done before allocating people to the various teams. Management and staff from all disciplines were in attendance.
The facilitator was careful to ensure that the teams had a cross-section of personalities - weak, strong, aggressive, passive, introvert, extrovert (smart? stupid? - possibly, if the prior tests could reveal this - we will never know.).
Setting up a course involving so many obviously took time to organise and came at considerable cost.
Nowadays, typically this stuff is web-based. The participant clicks boxes until the 'exam' has been passed. The end-game being to generate a certificate to add to the crewmember's training file. Too easy.
Anything that insults the intelligence is unlikely to be effective, and anyway, if CRM is all about 'team' a computer terminal is surely the very antithesis of that concept.
The idea that NASA could come up with internationally-accepted web-based material is good, but an element of classroom interaction with other humans is still needed.
The facilitator was careful to ensure that the teams had a cross-section of personalities - weak, strong, aggressive, passive, introvert, extrovert (smart? stupid? - possibly, if the prior tests could reveal this - we will never know.).
Setting up a course involving so many obviously took time to organise and came at considerable cost.
Nowadays, typically this stuff is web-based. The participant clicks boxes until the 'exam' has been passed. The end-game being to generate a certificate to add to the crewmember's training file. Too easy.
Anything that insults the intelligence is unlikely to be effective, and anyway, if CRM is all about 'team' a computer terminal is surely the very antithesis of that concept.
The idea that NASA could come up with internationally-accepted web-based material is good, but an element of classroom interaction with other humans is still needed.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 12th Jun 2013 at 01:57.
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Plane, Path, People? Oh FFS that sounds like a MBA 20's something speak... God forbid, it has to be Aviate,Navigate, Communicate, try telling Plane, Path, People ,to a Pilot with a burning engine after takeoff, I will tell you it wont resonate!
Plane... yeah Im in a Damn plane!
Path .... Fu$k the vnavpath!
People... Keep us all alive!
Aviate ... maintain control of this beast...
Navigate... Control established, fly it without hitting anything
Communicate... Tell the people that need to know what is needed, pax,atc fire service
Plane... yeah Im in a Damn plane!
Path .... Fu$k the vnavpath!
People... Keep us all alive!
Aviate ... maintain control of this beast...
Navigate... Control established, fly it without hitting anything
Communicate... Tell the people that need to know what is needed, pax,atc fire service
"AoA" it's now Fly, Navigate & Communicate, the old 'Aviate' encompasses all of the above so they had to divy it up a little better
Ya gotta get with the program buddy the world is being overtaken by Gen Y & Z's all with politically correctness as their main driver
Surely C-lot is pulling our legs here
Save us from their generation !
Wmk2
Ya gotta get with the program buddy the world is being overtaken by Gen Y & Z's all with politically correctness as their main driver
Surely C-lot is pulling our legs here
Save us from their generation !Wmk2
The idea that NASA could come up with internationally-accepted web-based material is good, but an element of classroom interaction with other humans is still needed
The first year could be an intro to the 5 or 6 basic subjects and then subsequent years could tick through them one by one with an emphasis on current industry issues. After a decade the industry pilot group would have a known knowledge base of CRM and have not lost their ability to tailor the last hour or two specifically to their own needs.
Further thought; with the technical resources available between NASA and UT and the teaching experts within their midst the courses would be of an extremely high standard and could be designed to hold people's interest ( bit of humour, bit of wow factor, bit of ' I can't believe it' element) even if they are sceptical of the chances of learning anything. We could test the first one on Wally 
Framer, good idea in principle. But the very operators that would benefit most from this training are probably the same ones who would never pay for it themselves. Cheapskate operators expect pilots to come with these mandatory 'bolt-on' courses (like DGs) already paid for. The real bottom feeders even expect pilots to fund their own Insrument Rating renewals.
Some tinpot mob with 10 pilots would really baulk at $500 a head for CRM, which the boss probably thinks is a crock anyway. They get round paying for this stuff by employing so-called 'casuals' who, of course, have to come with all necessary accreditations to be legal do the work.
You are probably right to estimate that $500 a head is about what NASA would want. Or do you think they would flog what is effectively a copyright for a grand total of $500 regardless of number of participants? Altruism suggests they should, but would they? The DGs people have got their courses all stitched up and certainly charge by the head.
Some tinpot mob with 10 pilots would really baulk at $500 a head for CRM, which the boss probably thinks is a crock anyway. They get round paying for this stuff by employing so-called 'casuals' who, of course, have to come with all necessary accreditations to be legal do the work.
You are probably right to estimate that $500 a head is about what NASA would want. Or do you think they would flog what is effectively a copyright for a grand total of $500 regardless of number of participants? Altruism suggests they should, but would they? The DGs people have got their courses all stitched up and certainly charge by the head.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 13th Jun 2013 at 07:38.
Go 4 it 'framer' use me as a test bed
If anyone can 'show me the way' they'll have broken thru common sense & destroyed one of the last few whom don't need CRM to stay alive 'cause after all pilots have been practicing CRM even though they didn't know it from the day Wilbur or Orville (can't recall which one) went up with the very first Pax & probably asked him can you see which way the trees are blowing for Ldg, the very birthplace of CRM!
Just for the record & no one heard this from me I have just completed my CRM course 2 days ago & believe it or not I didn't fall asleep in class
Wmk2
If anyone can 'show me the way' they'll have broken thru common sense & destroyed one of the last few whom don't need CRM to stay alive 'cause after all pilots have been practicing CRM even though they didn't know it from the day Wilbur or Orville (can't recall which one) went up with the very first Pax & probably asked him can you see which way the trees are blowing for Ldg, the very birthplace of CRM!
Just for the record & no one heard this from me I have just completed my CRM course 2 days ago & believe it or not I didn't fall asleep in class
Wmk2
Heh heh, thanks for the offer Wally
I'll PM you if the Dean of UT gets back to me.
I was actually thinking $500USD per airline per annum but I don't know a thing about how NASA works. It would have to be driven from on high, ie the Flight Safety Foundation, ICAO, FAA, JAA etc would have to endorse it and if the safety benefits were there then the funding of it could be arranged. I only suggested NASA / UT because they appear to be the leaders in CRM but if the decision was made then I am sure other reputable universities would tender for it.
I'll PM you if the Dean of UT gets back to me.
I was actually thinking $500USD per airline per annum but I don't know a thing about how NASA works. It would have to be driven from on high, ie the Flight Safety Foundation, ICAO, FAA, JAA etc would have to endorse it and if the safety benefits were there then the funding of it could be arranged. I only suggested NASA / UT because they appear to be the leaders in CRM but if the decision was made then I am sure other reputable universities would tender for it.
