R/T congestion
R/T congestion
As the subject heading alludes to this problem is a hassle at times & I often wonder in today's modern tech world if we can overcome it.
I see Airservices latest safety bulletin is reminding us of R/T etiquette especially on the Syd Ground Freq 121.7
At times this is a real pain with multiple A/C all trying to get in with a taxi request all at the same time not to mention the other multiple users of the same Freq.
One item it mentions in the bulletin is that we ought to wait for a previous A/C to reply to say an airways clearance for Eg b4 we speak. Well that's pretty obvious but the timing of such an event might just be when someone first comes on the freq & hears nothing for a few seconds then transmits effectively right at the same time the previous A/C is responding to ground. You can bet yr bottom dollar that should you wait a moment (as suggested) to check if someone is trying to respond that someone else will fill the gap, much like leaving a decent space between the car in front of you in a traffic jam & the usual idiot pushes in front
The bulletin also mentioned that during one 21 min time frame (Syd 121.7) there was less than 10 secs for a break in any one period between R/T's...sheeeez that ground controller must have been a wizard!:-)
I'd hate to be an ATC'er they can have that stressful task all to themselves
So the fix?..anyone? Comments.
Wmk2
p.s......favoritism??.........hmmm does it exist? Touchy subject I know but one has to wonder why we shoot one of our coat of arms animals as pests (both animals actually)on one hand when on the other they "seem" to get Cart Blanche at times:-)
I see Airservices latest safety bulletin is reminding us of R/T etiquette especially on the Syd Ground Freq 121.7
At times this is a real pain with multiple A/C all trying to get in with a taxi request all at the same time not to mention the other multiple users of the same Freq.
One item it mentions in the bulletin is that we ought to wait for a previous A/C to reply to say an airways clearance for Eg b4 we speak. Well that's pretty obvious but the timing of such an event might just be when someone first comes on the freq & hears nothing for a few seconds then transmits effectively right at the same time the previous A/C is responding to ground. You can bet yr bottom dollar that should you wait a moment (as suggested) to check if someone is trying to respond that someone else will fill the gap, much like leaving a decent space between the car in front of you in a traffic jam & the usual idiot pushes in front
The bulletin also mentioned that during one 21 min time frame (Syd 121.7) there was less than 10 secs for a break in any one period between R/T's...sheeeez that ground controller must have been a wizard!:-)
I'd hate to be an ATC'er they can have that stressful task all to themselves
So the fix?..anyone? Comments.
Wmk2
p.s......favoritism??.........hmmm does it exist? Touchy subject I know but one has to wonder why we shoot one of our coat of arms animals as pests (both animals actually)on one hand when on the other they "seem" to get Cart Blanche at times:-)
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 12th Apr 2013 at 00:19.
Quite simply Sydney needs a push and start frequency like other big airports around the world. All push requests should be made on a frequency specific to the terminal area i.e. one for International and one for domestic. Then it should be purely over to the ground frequency for taxi.
I don't know how many times we have been significantly delayed waiting for pushback due to not being able to get a word in with a very very busy ground frequency dealing with aircraft movements.
I don't know how many times we have been significantly delayed waiting for pushback due to not being able to get a word in with a very very busy ground frequency dealing with aircraft movements.
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The resolution to issues cost money & airline execs don't like spending money.
Each large airline operating out of Sydney (ie: QF,VA, JQ) should have their own Ramp Control function. Whether its the existing company frequency or a discrete frequency.
Once the aircraft doors are closed, tug or pushback device connected the aircraft calls the company frequency for the ok to go.
Company calls back call ground for push or calls hold position or pushback after company flight XYZ pushes. They may want to get another company aircraft away first who is pushing curfew, way off schedule or would be blocked in the alley if another company aircraft pushes first.
At least a number of company aircraft would be calling ground frequency at a metered rate.
But I have to agree. I've been given push approval & before I've had the opportunity to respond another aircraft fills the 1 second gap with a transmission. I think it comes down to people don't listen out before transmitting & too much traffic on one frequency.
MC
Each large airline operating out of Sydney (ie: QF,VA, JQ) should have their own Ramp Control function. Whether its the existing company frequency or a discrete frequency.
Once the aircraft doors are closed, tug or pushback device connected the aircraft calls the company frequency for the ok to go.
Company calls back call ground for push or calls hold position or pushback after company flight XYZ pushes. They may want to get another company aircraft away first who is pushing curfew, way off schedule or would be blocked in the alley if another company aircraft pushes first.
At least a number of company aircraft would be calling ground frequency at a metered rate.
But I have to agree. I've been given push approval & before I've had the opportunity to respond another aircraft fills the 1 second gap with a transmission. I think it comes down to people don't listen out before transmitting & too much traffic on one frequency.
MC
Last edited by Mstr Caution; 12th Apr 2013 at 00:33.
"MC" I can see where yr comin' from re a sep freq but that in some ways would put the ground controller out of the loop as not only does he have to grant push-back clearance he also has to deal with A/C just coming off the rwy going to the same area yr pushing back from as well as perhaps multiple A/C already awaiting a taxi clearance beyond a certain holding point to the same parking area (DOM2 for Eg). Having a new freq such as Co ground controller still has to liase with the grnd controller eventually to get a pushback clearance so the congestion still exists I'm afraid.
I can't see a solution really as even the COBTimes aren't working that well & now the new STAR Spd Restrictions are being cancelled at regular times.
Airservices seem to be battling with a lot ATM.
Wmk2
I can't see a solution really as even the COBTimes aren't working that well & now the new STAR Spd Restrictions are being cancelled at regular times.
Airservices seem to be battling with a lot ATM.
Wmk2
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As others have said, we need another frequency for pushbacks, etc.
If you wait for a long gap to make a call you will sit there all day...
Airservices needs to do something about the frequency congestion, you can't blame us for it.
If you wait for a long gap to make a call you will sit there all day...
Airservices needs to do something about the frequency congestion, you can't blame us for it.
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I should clarify.
A seperate frequency with absolutely no authority to tell an aircraft to push.
The existing function of ground control on 121.7 for pushback & taxi in or out from the gate.
The company rep should be just looking at logistics.
Say for example there are two aircraft ready to push and one aircraft has just landed and is taxing in and 3 minutes from the gate.
The aircraft one calls company for the authorisation to call ground for push.
The company knows aircraft two have got the final load sheet and is 30 minutes behind schedule.
Company advises aircraft one. Behind the aircraft taxi in for gate X and after aircraft two pushes your clear to call ground for push.
Hence my comment aurcraft call Ground frequency at a metered rate & the company decides the order in which aircraft shall push.
MC.
A seperate frequency with absolutely no authority to tell an aircraft to push.
The existing function of ground control on 121.7 for pushback & taxi in or out from the gate.
The company rep should be just looking at logistics.
Say for example there are two aircraft ready to push and one aircraft has just landed and is taxing in and 3 minutes from the gate.
The aircraft one calls company for the authorisation to call ground for push.
The company knows aircraft two have got the final load sheet and is 30 minutes behind schedule.
Company advises aircraft one. Behind the aircraft taxi in for gate X and after aircraft two pushes your clear to call ground for push.
Hence my comment aurcraft call Ground frequency at a metered rate & the company decides the order in which aircraft shall push.
MC.
Last edited by Mstr Caution; 12th Apr 2013 at 01:00.
Rather than sending 6 narrow bodies on a specific city pair.
Agreed separate ramp frequencies would be great.
"Sydney Apron, XXX Request Push..."
"XXX Approaching ____, Contact Sydney Ground, 121.7.."
Problem alleviated...
Just don't go the way of Melbourne... I'm still lost as to why the aircraft needs a push clearance, then the tug needs a push clearance..... talk about double dutch....
"XXX Approaching ____, Contact Sydney Ground, 121.7.."
Problem alleviated...
Just don't go the way of Melbourne... I'm still lost as to why the aircraft needs a push clearance, then the tug needs a push clearance..... talk about double dutch....
Why does it take a push back request, a taxi request, an instruction to hold short C, an instruction to hold short Runway 07, an instruction to cross runway 07 and hold short S, a change of frequency to indicate holding short S, a call to indicate I am ready multiplied by two for the acknowledgements just to get airborne even on a day with NO traffic!
Don't start me on the landing process.
They have created this mess with the profusion of unnecessay read backs and partial taxi clearance requirements and now they blame us for not showing a proper R/T etiquette. Give me a break!
Sure when its busy we need restricted taxi clearances but shssssss it is so frustrating to be the only one on frequency and I taxi to a halt at B8 or a runway crossing because a "taxi to the bay" was not issued.
Don't start me on the inane taxi to "THE HOLDING POINT" T6 Runway 34R and not repeat back the "Holding Point" instruction that for the last 80 years everybody has been taxing to!
Sydney should have staggered departures on T5 and T6 so that Northbound flights taxi to T6 and south bound to T5 which would enable a lineup clearance and take off clearance without the applicable spacing requirements if two Northbound or two southbound flights are taxing in tandem.
Brisbane 01 Departures would benefit from staggered departures of A7 and A9 enabling a North South North South stream of departures every 30 seconds.
A controller had at least 12 aircraft taxing the other day in Brisbane and used his nouse to direct aircraft to alternate A7 and A9 holding points and got us all away in about 3 minutes. Fantastic job and I said as much on departure.
Will it become policy...Na....we talk too much .....thats the problem!
Don't start me on the landing process.
They have created this mess with the profusion of unnecessay read backs and partial taxi clearance requirements and now they blame us for not showing a proper R/T etiquette. Give me a break!
Sure when its busy we need restricted taxi clearances but shssssss it is so frustrating to be the only one on frequency and I taxi to a halt at B8 or a runway crossing because a "taxi to the bay" was not issued.
Don't start me on the inane taxi to "THE HOLDING POINT" T6 Runway 34R and not repeat back the "Holding Point" instruction that for the last 80 years everybody has been taxing to!
Sydney should have staggered departures on T5 and T6 so that Northbound flights taxi to T6 and south bound to T5 which would enable a lineup clearance and take off clearance without the applicable spacing requirements if two Northbound or two southbound flights are taxing in tandem.
Brisbane 01 Departures would benefit from staggered departures of A7 and A9 enabling a North South North South stream of departures every 30 seconds.
A controller had at least 12 aircraft taxing the other day in Brisbane and used his nouse to direct aircraft to alternate A7 and A9 holding points and got us all away in about 3 minutes. Fantastic job and I said as much on departure.
Will it become policy...Na....we talk too much .....thats the problem!
"gate" if it where that simple we wouldn't be here showing our displeasure.
When the Nth Sth Rwy's are in use only I would have thought that making the E/W Rwy lights go to blue ( non active Rwy) would help a little meaning no clearance req'd to cross.
Syd's taxi-way layout is somewhat complex in & around DOM 2&3 that coupled with heavy rain & night time with flood light apron lights it's any wonder half the time A/C simply don't get lost or crawl at snail pace just to stay out of the CP's office!
If I recall ML had an apron Twr atop one of the finger-ways back in the 80's, wonder why that went by the wayside, perhaps expansion made it not practicable or cost.
It's good to see that there's some spirited responses so far
Wmk2
When the Nth Sth Rwy's are in use only I would have thought that making the E/W Rwy lights go to blue ( non active Rwy) would help a little meaning no clearance req'd to cross.
Syd's taxi-way layout is somewhat complex in & around DOM 2&3 that coupled with heavy rain & night time with flood light apron lights it's any wonder half the time A/C simply don't get lost or crawl at snail pace just to stay out of the CP's office!
If I recall ML had an apron Twr atop one of the finger-ways back in the 80's, wonder why that went by the wayside, perhaps expansion made it not practicable or cost.
It's good to see that there's some spirited responses so far
Wmk2
Ad-Astra is right and it is another example of stupid bureaucratic rules and requirements which create a problem that they then blame pilots for.
Instead of putting out AIP Sups why don't they do something constructive and change the rules to make things workable, rather than loading us up with legal requirements.
For example if they abolish the requirement to get a clearance to cross a non active runway it could save them a tonne of radio traffic.
Nice idea but there is not enough parking at the domestic side for that
Instead of putting out AIP Sups why don't they do something constructive and change the rules to make things workable, rather than loading us up with legal requirements.
For example if they abolish the requirement to get a clearance to cross a non active runway it could save them a tonne of radio traffic.
Rather than sending 6 narrow bodies on a specific city pair. They should schedule 4 widebodies & reduce congestion
Last edited by neville_nobody; 12th Apr 2013 at 05:23.
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If I recall ML had an apron Twr atop one of the finger-ways back in the 80's,
As well as the number of a/c, I wonder if congestion on ground frequencies (as opposed to enroute) is exasperated by
- longer more complicated clearances will result in larger gaps before read backs.
- many transmissions made by a/c just switched to that frequency, rather than being on the same one for a while.
CPDLC has the potential to reduce frequency congestion, but it isn't common. Its quite nice to datalink a complicated reroute and know that what is in my computer is synced with the crews computer.
PS favouritism - the perception arrises from the preponderance of a particular airline's aircraft at a particular airport. This is the subject to confirmation bias. Lots of pilots think we favour a another airline over theirs, I've never heard of one who thinks theirs is favoured. (Obviously this doesn't apply to the Fokker Conspiracy at PH)
Last edited by Nautilus Blue; 12th Apr 2013 at 03:49.
They note from Airservices is not realy going to help. As already posted here if I have to wait for a big gap on the radio I will simply never get a call in. On Dom 2 if you miss a call you could be placed 3-4 in the queue to push and be delayed by over 15min. It is no good for me to have a competing airline jump ahead of me just because I followed the guidelines of when to make a radio call.
I'm still lost as to why the aircraft needs a push clearance, then the tug needs a push clearance..... talk about double dutch....
Why does it take a push back request, a taxi request, an instruction to hold short C, an instruction to hold short Runway 07, an instruction to cross runway 07 and hold short S, a change of frequency to indicate holding short S, a call to indicate I am ready multiplied by two for the acknowledgements just to get airborne even on a day with NO traffic!
Instead of putting out AIP Sups why don't they do something constructive and change the rules to make things workable, rather than loading us up with legal requirements.
Moving back to Australia after living overseas for many years has been a real eye-opener. We delude ourselves that we are the best and have no qualms telling the rest of the world. Fortunately, the rest of the world isn't listening.
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That Airservices blurb doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know. The geography of SY sometimes shields aircraft from hearing one-another's transmissions with SMC. That's only one factor.
Simple airmanship is another.......
Common sense and airmanship isn't that common anymore.
Yes, a separate ramp frequency is most likely the answer. That's how it's done in just about every other civilised country.
Simple airmanship is another.......
Common sense and airmanship isn't that common anymore.
Yes, a separate ramp frequency is most likely the answer. That's how it's done in just about every other civilised country.
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Angry Rat
And if there is frequency congestion, open mike or other distractions how does the Surface Movement Controller get in to interject and get the aircraft to stop?
99%+ of pilots at the Capital City Airports are good operators. It is the other -1% that surprise us, but even the 99%+ can have a bad day and line up a few holes in the cheese (just like controllers).
Then the controller only interjects when they want them to hold short of an active runway or they want to organise separation between 2 aircraft
99%+ of pilots at the Capital City Airports are good operators. It is the other -1% that surprise us, but even the 99%+ can have a bad day and line up a few holes in the cheese (just like controllers).
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Sydney has been using a coord frequency of late, but it doesn't seem to achieve anything.
Get your clearance/read back PDC on delivery and they tell you to contact coord when ready to push, who then immediately tell you to call ground.?????
If you're going to have a separate frequency for that phase of departure, why not a ramp frequency?
AKL has a ramp frequency with one movement a week. How the bloody hell does Sydney NOT have one? I am amazed at how the Sydney ground controllers keep it on the rails. You must be bloody good at chess. I don't know how much you guys get paid but its not nearly enough. Hats off to you. But one day some poor controller under the pump is going to make a mistake and clear an aircraft across an active runway in front of another on take off/landing with dire consequences.
A ramp frequency NOW, and an end to bureaucratic lip service of the problem.
Get your clearance/read back PDC on delivery and they tell you to contact coord when ready to push, who then immediately tell you to call ground.?????
If you're going to have a separate frequency for that phase of departure, why not a ramp frequency?
AKL has a ramp frequency with one movement a week. How the bloody hell does Sydney NOT have one? I am amazed at how the Sydney ground controllers keep it on the rails. You must be bloody good at chess. I don't know how much you guys get paid but its not nearly enough. Hats off to you. But one day some poor controller under the pump is going to make a mistake and clear an aircraft across an active runway in front of another on take off/landing with dire consequences.
A ramp frequency NOW, and an end to bureaucratic lip service of the problem.
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No disrespect intended, but the lack of ATCO's is not our problem. If Airservices management is incapable of having the foresight to employ and train staff in order to provide the service we require - no, need - then perhaps somebody else should be given the opportunity to pick up the reins.
I think it's about time the industry collaborated and started a class action against Airservices for all the delays we incur as a result of Airservices failure to provide an appropriately manned air traffic control service. Or at least deduct the cost of unnecessary delays from our air nav charges invoices.
And before you ATCO's shoot me down, I'm talking about your bosses. You people do a brilliant job with what you're given. Case in point SY SMC this morning around 0800. Whoever was on that position was a legend. The radio didn't stop the whole time we were on frequency. I was amazed at the bloke's situational awareness and ability to deal with so many movements. But the frequency was choked and movements slowed as a result.
Another vote for a ramp controller here.
I think it's about time the industry collaborated and started a class action against Airservices for all the delays we incur as a result of Airservices failure to provide an appropriately manned air traffic control service. Or at least deduct the cost of unnecessary delays from our air nav charges invoices.
And before you ATCO's shoot me down, I'm talking about your bosses. You people do a brilliant job with what you're given. Case in point SY SMC this morning around 0800. Whoever was on that position was a legend. The radio didn't stop the whole time we were on frequency. I was amazed at the bloke's situational awareness and ability to deal with so many movements. But the frequency was choked and movements slowed as a result.
Another vote for a ramp controller here.