Jetstar (and VA) issues towards NZ negoiations
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Life unfortunately is unfair.
Where does it all stop?
I was at the company EBA meeting in 2003 ( i think from memory) where Godfrey stood up in front of the pilot group and told us we were going to be flying the Pacific. He made the promise that the Vb Pilots would crew all flight.. His exact words were " it's not a matter of if but when you guys start flying the pacific". He even had written into the EBA that was being negotiated at the time a pay rise of $7000 and a one off cash payment of another $7000 as an international allowance for such an operation..
After the EBA Was voted in only three months later, he announced PB, hired NZ pilots and then refused to pay the promised money. We were well and truly screwed over and were all extremely pissed off at the time. We had in writing (contained within our EBA) a promise of VB crew flying the pacific. How many PB crew know this story? I hold no grudge and feel no ill will towards any VANZ pilot. We quite often see them in the hotel or in immigration and I always stop for a chat with them.
Fast forward a few years and we arrive a V Australia.. Once again certain guarantees were made. Before we know it, guys from South Africa, Fiji are employed to fill F/O positions despite there being more than capable crew within VB who could easily fill those position.. V Australia only started with 1 destination. Numerous 737/EMB F/O's have since transferred across without any problems. Only now are positions being filled by VAA crew.
The pilots employed by V Australia were also made promises. They were promised quick 777 commands and progression. These pilots packed up their families, resigned from their current positions and moved to a foreign country based on this guarantee. Fast forward a few years and the reality is none of these people will ever see a 777 command. They are now behind 800 domestic crew.
If we accept and abide by all promises there would be no workable integration policy. VAA pilots would expect their original rights and promise to operate all pacific flying, they would also expect all SFO positions on the 777 with the removal of the guys hired from outside the company to fill those positions originally. The SFO's on the 777 would require all 777 commands over the most senior VAA pilots. The CRFO's would demands strict DOJ and the VAA F/O's would in turn demand all VAI pilots go to the bottom of the list.
Because of the above stated mess, the question was asked "who's promise outranks who's". That all depends on which side of the fence you happen to sit.
Once again we arrive at a totally unworkable system.
In the end it was decided to protect VAA jobs for VAA pilots, VANZ jobs for VANZ pilots. The biggest losers were the VAI crew, not the VANZ pilots. They ended up with no protection at all! There is no command protection at VAI. Bypass pay is one thing, obtaining and actual command and warming the left seat is another. Most pilots strive for a command, not to sit in the left seat getting captains wages.
The integration group looked at all contracts, listened to all promises and guarantees made ,be it verbal or in writing and over eight months or so came up with a policy that whilst not completely fair for everyone, did not lump the full brunt of integration on any one group. No single group wins and no single group loses either.
If the VANZ pilots wish to untie the integration policy, how about the VAA crew present their original guarantee which was put in writing and contained within the EBA to the judge for review. After all they were guaranteed all pacific flying three months before the was a pacific Blue!
The other option of course is for VANZ to completely silo. This will not affect VAA or VAI in the slightest and I'm sure they will happily go along with this.
What VANZ have gained out of integration is not perfect or everything they may want, wish for or expect, but it is more than they have at the moment. No other group got all they expected either.
Where does it all stop?
I was at the company EBA meeting in 2003 ( i think from memory) where Godfrey stood up in front of the pilot group and told us we were going to be flying the Pacific. He made the promise that the Vb Pilots would crew all flight.. His exact words were " it's not a matter of if but when you guys start flying the pacific". He even had written into the EBA that was being negotiated at the time a pay rise of $7000 and a one off cash payment of another $7000 as an international allowance for such an operation..
After the EBA Was voted in only three months later, he announced PB, hired NZ pilots and then refused to pay the promised money. We were well and truly screwed over and were all extremely pissed off at the time. We had in writing (contained within our EBA) a promise of VB crew flying the pacific. How many PB crew know this story? I hold no grudge and feel no ill will towards any VANZ pilot. We quite often see them in the hotel or in immigration and I always stop for a chat with them.
Fast forward a few years and we arrive a V Australia.. Once again certain guarantees were made. Before we know it, guys from South Africa, Fiji are employed to fill F/O positions despite there being more than capable crew within VB who could easily fill those position.. V Australia only started with 1 destination. Numerous 737/EMB F/O's have since transferred across without any problems. Only now are positions being filled by VAA crew.
The pilots employed by V Australia were also made promises. They were promised quick 777 commands and progression. These pilots packed up their families, resigned from their current positions and moved to a foreign country based on this guarantee. Fast forward a few years and the reality is none of these people will ever see a 777 command. They are now behind 800 domestic crew.
If we accept and abide by all promises there would be no workable integration policy. VAA pilots would expect their original rights and promise to operate all pacific flying, they would also expect all SFO positions on the 777 with the removal of the guys hired from outside the company to fill those positions originally. The SFO's on the 777 would require all 777 commands over the most senior VAA pilots. The CRFO's would demands strict DOJ and the VAA F/O's would in turn demand all VAI pilots go to the bottom of the list.
Because of the above stated mess, the question was asked "who's promise outranks who's". That all depends on which side of the fence you happen to sit.
Once again we arrive at a totally unworkable system.
In the end it was decided to protect VAA jobs for VAA pilots, VANZ jobs for VANZ pilots. The biggest losers were the VAI crew, not the VANZ pilots. They ended up with no protection at all! There is no command protection at VAI. Bypass pay is one thing, obtaining and actual command and warming the left seat is another. Most pilots strive for a command, not to sit in the left seat getting captains wages.
The integration group looked at all contracts, listened to all promises and guarantees made ,be it verbal or in writing and over eight months or so came up with a policy that whilst not completely fair for everyone, did not lump the full brunt of integration on any one group. No single group wins and no single group loses either.
If the VANZ pilots wish to untie the integration policy, how about the VAA crew present their original guarantee which was put in writing and contained within the EBA to the judge for review. After all they were guaranteed all pacific flying three months before the was a pacific Blue!
The other option of course is for VANZ to completely silo. This will not affect VAA or VAI in the slightest and I'm sure they will happily go along with this.
What VANZ have gained out of integration is not perfect or everything they may want, wish for or expect, but it is more than they have at the moment. No other group got all they expected either.
Last edited by fmcinop; 6th Apr 2013 at 21:43.
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The problem with the said integration doc is that the nz crews have not seen the finalised one that you guys voted on so how are we supposed to make any sort of decision based on fact if we don't have any of them, I still don't see why they couldn't have 1 list based on doj, then protect the respective commands in nz and au at vaa and have wide body transfers based on doj, no one would loose out then despite what gets thrown around... But the document should Not have been in the eba, just like we didn't agree that it was in the nz CEA which was voted down cause it was disgusting.
It is something that the groups could have worked on to TOGETER, not nz being told what is happening.
Wrt to the promise that was made by Godfrey, only you could say, I personally can't comment on that one. But IF you had it in writing, given there are 1000 odd pilots in au, why then would your union not have commenced industrial action about a breach of eba... Maybe cause it was just offered as a comment, the allowance referred to would not in itself assure that Dom crew would get the flying... But again, not sure on that... But it still strikes me as VERY odd that a union minded work force like that of VB/VAA would let that go without a fight, and I don't remember there being one...
I do remember something about your duty limits that they put in there and you guys thought they would never be able to use, but they did, think it was wrt the Denpasar flights or something, again, not entirely sure...
There was a big push to get the integration doc thru on the threat of what MIGHT happen, but the truth is, nz crews don't want to shyt on the au crews in the slightest but you see us as a threat to Australian jobs, but all the time that nz has a significantly less contract to you guys this perceived threat will always be there.
Nz is not selling itself short, thy are actively negotiating with the company and you can only get so much from a company. Rest assured, if we sign a contract off, it will be the best that our neg team could get.
I would like to think that we can all work together- metaphorically of course, but when you get called a scab, Mexican, this just isn't that cool, and was accused of taking Aussie flying by a flight attendant! Next time that happens I will most surely get their name and follow it up against the kwof policy.
Life is unfortunately not fair...
Correct, we are doing the pacific flying, you guys arent for whatever reason, who cares, as long as we still all have jobs then growing the company the best we can surely is the end goal because that will hopefully ensure jobs and a good lifestyle for years to come. But you just need to look sideways at the red rat to see what happens if it is done wrong...we have a great company which is still very young, lets keep doing what we do and make it even better. John is doing a great job from where I sit, so lets just help him as best we can.
It is something that the groups could have worked on to TOGETER, not nz being told what is happening.
Wrt to the promise that was made by Godfrey, only you could say, I personally can't comment on that one. But IF you had it in writing, given there are 1000 odd pilots in au, why then would your union not have commenced industrial action about a breach of eba... Maybe cause it was just offered as a comment, the allowance referred to would not in itself assure that Dom crew would get the flying... But again, not sure on that... But it still strikes me as VERY odd that a union minded work force like that of VB/VAA would let that go without a fight, and I don't remember there being one...
I do remember something about your duty limits that they put in there and you guys thought they would never be able to use, but they did, think it was wrt the Denpasar flights or something, again, not entirely sure...
There was a big push to get the integration doc thru on the threat of what MIGHT happen, but the truth is, nz crews don't want to shyt on the au crews in the slightest but you see us as a threat to Australian jobs, but all the time that nz has a significantly less contract to you guys this perceived threat will always be there.
Nz is not selling itself short, thy are actively negotiating with the company and you can only get so much from a company. Rest assured, if we sign a contract off, it will be the best that our neg team could get.
I would like to think that we can all work together- metaphorically of course, but when you get called a scab, Mexican, this just isn't that cool, and was accused of taking Aussie flying by a flight attendant! Next time that happens I will most surely get their name and follow it up against the kwof policy.
Life is unfortunately not fair...
Correct, we are doing the pacific flying, you guys arent for whatever reason, who cares, as long as we still all have jobs then growing the company the best we can surely is the end goal because that will hopefully ensure jobs and a good lifestyle for years to come. But you just need to look sideways at the red rat to see what happens if it is done wrong...we have a great company which is still very young, lets keep doing what we do and make it even better. John is doing a great job from where I sit, so lets just help him as best we can.
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fmcinop makes a good point. A judicial review would resolve this. The panel should be totally independent of all parties concerned.
Just to add my two bobs worth on previous discussion. A date of joining list by its name sake, should be strictly the date you joined the group. Anything else is not a DOJ list.
The company insisted on making the DOJ issue part of the VAA negotiations. As a result the Australian unions have had to create a outcome that would gain a positive vote from only the VAA pilots. Surely one group (VAA) shouldn't have the power to vote on other group (VAI VANZ) employment recognition.
Employment issues are for HR.
Just to add my two bobs worth on previous discussion. A date of joining list by its name sake, should be strictly the date you joined the group. Anything else is not a DOJ list.
The company insisted on making the DOJ issue part of the VAA negotiations. As a result the Australian unions have had to create a outcome that would gain a positive vote from only the VAA pilots. Surely one group (VAA) shouldn't have the power to vote on other group (VAI VANZ) employment recognition.
Employment issues are for HR.
Last edited by Voz1; 7th Apr 2013 at 21:10.
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VAA and VAI based in Australia on Australian T&C's
VANZ based in NZ on NZ T&C's.
Different country, different management, different conditions.
Is Jetconnect on QANTAS seniority list? Can they transfer to QANTAS Australia? I think VANZ are lucky to be on the list at all, based on the facts above.
The problem with allowing VANZ pilots to use the 2008 date, is that it will displace too many pilots from VAA, pilots that have already been displaced by VAI. Considering 60 VANZ pilots applied for 6 VAA 737 f/o positions recently, it gives you an indication of their intentions.
As for the threats for future flying.
If they get A330's good luck to them, they can brag about being the lowest paid A330 pilots in the World.
VANZ based in NZ on NZ T&C's.
Different country, different management, different conditions.
Is Jetconnect on QANTAS seniority list? Can they transfer to QANTAS Australia? I think VANZ are lucky to be on the list at all, based on the facts above.
The problem with allowing VANZ pilots to use the 2008 date, is that it will displace too many pilots from VAA, pilots that have already been displaced by VAI. Considering 60 VANZ pilots applied for 6 VAA 737 f/o positions recently, it gives you an indication of their intentions.
As for the threats for future flying.
If they get A330's good luck to them, they can brag about being the lowest paid A330 pilots in the World.
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If it were all one sided the VAA guys would all be at the top and everyone else would be down the bottom. VANZ would also not have any command priority.
Many VAA F/O's don't feel all warm and fuzzy with the policy either. They feel cheated and robbed as do many Captains who believe VAA was the first kid on the block with the initial promises made to them so they should prevail.
My point being VAA have not come out on top because it was voted for in their EBA. VAI voted for a separated pay scale without consultation with VAA. WHat pay grade do the VAA F/O's go on when they transfer to VAI. IT's not level 5 like the rest of the SFO's. What about the most companies most senior Captains transferring from VAA to VAI. They are not on level 5 either. Where was the consultation then during the VAI EBA and why aren't the VANZ pilots up in arms over this travesty. VAI voted for thing that affect VAA crew without their approval or thoughts during the VAI EBA. Lets not now point the finger at others. VANZ did not consult anyone in 2008 just as VAI did not consult anyone during their last EBA. At least VAA set up a committee made up with representation for VAI and asked VAI pilots for their ideas.
The integration committee was made up of representatives from the AFAP and VIPA both international and domestic. Surveys and email were sort from all parties as to what they wanted out of the policy. The final outcome voiced the opinion of the majority of those who bothered to respond to the surveys and questionnaires.
VANZ could have just been left out of the mix altogether and not been a part of the deal. This was discussed but was thought to be too unfair, so in their interest their commands were protected and they were given access to the Australian operation which many in VAA objected to.
VANZ in owned by VAA but is a foreign operation in a foreign country. If VANZ pilots are so thoughtful and courteous why did they not approach the VAA pilots and unions back in 2008 to find out what we thought of the deal and to seek our approval? The first we heard of this deal was during the integration negotiations only a few months ago. Why did VANZ not bother to inform their Australian counterpart of such an important and critical policy?
The idea of integration is to stop the us and then mentality and to put and end to the infighting. Your doing our flying and we should be operating those sectors etc. This will not happen overnight and will take many years.
VANZ are in a better position than they were in prior to the integration policy. I'll bet there would be over 1000 pilots who would all chip in to fight any legal battle that is brewing over the rights of foreign crew do dictate and demand anything from an Australian operation who were not informed, consulted or asked about a policy to allow foreign pilots full access to an Australian operation based on a date marked in the sand for an overseas company. In the end they may very well find themselves silo'd for good.
Oh hang on, I was told and it was put in writing for me and about 400 other pilots that we would be doing all international flying. Right oh guys. Hand it over! Where does this all end?
We are trying to avoid this sort of behaviour and infighting so we may at some stage all live harmoniously all working for a common goal that will in the long term benefit the entire group. Threatening legal action and the destruction of the integration policy or forced modification of will only lead to hatred and distain and will further intrench the us and them ideal.
For the guys who made the move to VAI, dug up their families, sold their houses and actually made the move over the pond based on the promise of a 2008 date and 777 command, I personally believe they should have special consideration given to them. I really feel for these guys especially.
Management were not pushing integration at all. What they said was you guys go and work it out and play nice or we will silo everyone. There is a cost to the company with integration. A 737 Captain moves to the 777, an ejet Captain takes their spot, a 737 F/O take the Ejet command and they employ a new ejet F/O. Under A silo they promote a SFO to 777 Captain keeping in mind less training etc and promote a CRFO to SFO and hire a new CRFO.Both promotions in this case are people already operating the 777 so training is greatly reduced.
Having been a AFAP member for many years and a state REP etc I have never seen or heard of any request from VANZ for help with their EBA or T & C's. We negotiate our EBA in Australia, they negotiate theirs in the same manner in NZ. We work in different countries, operate under different laws etc have a different cost of living. You cant expect the same for both operations in two totally different countries.
By putting VANZ pilots to the bottom of the VAA list how does this affect their ability to negotiate their EBA? Pilots hired for VAA will be on VAA pay and conditions just as those who go to VAI will be on their T & C's. If a pilot is employed for VANZ then they will be on VANZ conditions. Did the lower pay and conditions at VANZ affect the VAI or VAA EBS's? NO! WHy did the company not use that card during negotiations here. Those VANZ guys do it for this much, so you guys need to rethink you salary log of claims.
For those who choose to move to Australia the door is now officially open, for those who don't it business as usual with absolutely no change for you.
Many VAA F/O's don't feel all warm and fuzzy with the policy either. They feel cheated and robbed as do many Captains who believe VAA was the first kid on the block with the initial promises made to them so they should prevail.
My point being VAA have not come out on top because it was voted for in their EBA. VAI voted for a separated pay scale without consultation with VAA. WHat pay grade do the VAA F/O's go on when they transfer to VAI. IT's not level 5 like the rest of the SFO's. What about the most companies most senior Captains transferring from VAA to VAI. They are not on level 5 either. Where was the consultation then during the VAI EBA and why aren't the VANZ pilots up in arms over this travesty. VAI voted for thing that affect VAA crew without their approval or thoughts during the VAI EBA. Lets not now point the finger at others. VANZ did not consult anyone in 2008 just as VAI did not consult anyone during their last EBA. At least VAA set up a committee made up with representation for VAI and asked VAI pilots for their ideas.
The integration committee was made up of representatives from the AFAP and VIPA both international and domestic. Surveys and email were sort from all parties as to what they wanted out of the policy. The final outcome voiced the opinion of the majority of those who bothered to respond to the surveys and questionnaires.
VANZ could have just been left out of the mix altogether and not been a part of the deal. This was discussed but was thought to be too unfair, so in their interest their commands were protected and they were given access to the Australian operation which many in VAA objected to.
VANZ in owned by VAA but is a foreign operation in a foreign country. If VANZ pilots are so thoughtful and courteous why did they not approach the VAA pilots and unions back in 2008 to find out what we thought of the deal and to seek our approval? The first we heard of this deal was during the integration negotiations only a few months ago. Why did VANZ not bother to inform their Australian counterpart of such an important and critical policy?
The idea of integration is to stop the us and then mentality and to put and end to the infighting. Your doing our flying and we should be operating those sectors etc. This will not happen overnight and will take many years.
VANZ are in a better position than they were in prior to the integration policy. I'll bet there would be over 1000 pilots who would all chip in to fight any legal battle that is brewing over the rights of foreign crew do dictate and demand anything from an Australian operation who were not informed, consulted or asked about a policy to allow foreign pilots full access to an Australian operation based on a date marked in the sand for an overseas company. In the end they may very well find themselves silo'd for good.
Oh hang on, I was told and it was put in writing for me and about 400 other pilots that we would be doing all international flying. Right oh guys. Hand it over! Where does this all end?
We are trying to avoid this sort of behaviour and infighting so we may at some stage all live harmoniously all working for a common goal that will in the long term benefit the entire group. Threatening legal action and the destruction of the integration policy or forced modification of will only lead to hatred and distain and will further intrench the us and them ideal.
For the guys who made the move to VAI, dug up their families, sold their houses and actually made the move over the pond based on the promise of a 2008 date and 777 command, I personally believe they should have special consideration given to them. I really feel for these guys especially.
Management were not pushing integration at all. What they said was you guys go and work it out and play nice or we will silo everyone. There is a cost to the company with integration. A 737 Captain moves to the 777, an ejet Captain takes their spot, a 737 F/O take the Ejet command and they employ a new ejet F/O. Under A silo they promote a SFO to 777 Captain keeping in mind less training etc and promote a CRFO to SFO and hire a new CRFO.Both promotions in this case are people already operating the 777 so training is greatly reduced.
Having been a AFAP member for many years and a state REP etc I have never seen or heard of any request from VANZ for help with their EBA or T & C's. We negotiate our EBA in Australia, they negotiate theirs in the same manner in NZ. We work in different countries, operate under different laws etc have a different cost of living. You cant expect the same for both operations in two totally different countries.
By putting VANZ pilots to the bottom of the VAA list how does this affect their ability to negotiate their EBA? Pilots hired for VAA will be on VAA pay and conditions just as those who go to VAI will be on their T & C's. If a pilot is employed for VANZ then they will be on VANZ conditions. Did the lower pay and conditions at VANZ affect the VAI or VAA EBS's? NO! WHy did the company not use that card during negotiations here. Those VANZ guys do it for this much, so you guys need to rethink you salary log of claims.
For those who choose to move to Australia the door is now officially open, for those who don't it business as usual with absolutely no change for you.
Last edited by fmcinop; 7th Apr 2013 at 06:05.
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And there we have it. A divided workforce with a them against us mentality willing to drop turds on each other from a great height.
Looks like Borghetti did learn a few tricks from his time at QF. Classic Oldmeadow I.R. strategy!!
Work together Virgin Group pilots or you will forever be fighting each other and not the company. If you don't learn from the lessons of the QF JQ history you are bound to repeat the same mistakes.
Looks like Borghetti did learn a few tricks from his time at QF. Classic Oldmeadow I.R. strategy!!
Work together Virgin Group pilots or you will forever be fighting each other and not the company. If you don't learn from the lessons of the QF JQ history you are bound to repeat the same mistakes.
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Yes that is correct, we need to work as one which was the point of this thread. Fmc, agreed, thanks for acknowledging it is not a fair process. But as you say we need to move forward as one.
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The question needs to be asked, what would the Aussies gain by ordering the pacific flying to be done by Australia? Shafting 170 kiwi crew out of jobs? There is nothing to gain by anyone taking anyone else's flying. Bottom of the list is better than no list at all has been quoted around the traps, but is it really.
Just out of interest, can someone send me a copy of the integration part of the eba, given it is under schedule 4 and not in the main body of the document. I would be interested to see exactly what it says because it might clarify a few things.
I know I was employed to fly the routes we currently fly, I knew that I didn't have the option of wide body progression easily within the group, I can see the benifit of the list but a lot can't because of the ate we were given. I still can't see why we can't have a doj list with the commands for nz and au fos blocked off, anything else should be doj based, it isn't that hard but it requIres all parties to have an open mind and listen.
As a note, herd that the company's reps dealing with negotiations have said they haven't dealt with a group that are able to come up with a solution and are non confrontational before which if true says something.
I totally accept the different country different conditions thing and have NEVER expected the au money, some have... But as someone else alluded to on here wrt, if you have a doj list, then that's what it is, blocking commands for each nz and vaa is a good will gesture thing for both I think and it's good that this has been done, but all nz on 01/07/2012 is not doj.
One of the reports that came from the company said that they basicly didnt really care about a list, it didnt make much difference to the company, but recognised the benifit for the pilot group, so I very much doubt they insisted that it be included as it could then open them up to issues which will not be discussed here, but to say that nz have done nothing after hearing about the integration doc is actually inaccurate...
Just out of interest, can someone send me a copy of the integration part of the eba, given it is under schedule 4 and not in the main body of the document. I would be interested to see exactly what it says because it might clarify a few things.
I know I was employed to fly the routes we currently fly, I knew that I didn't have the option of wide body progression easily within the group, I can see the benifit of the list but a lot can't because of the ate we were given. I still can't see why we can't have a doj list with the commands for nz and au fos blocked off, anything else should be doj based, it isn't that hard but it requIres all parties to have an open mind and listen.
As a note, herd that the company's reps dealing with negotiations have said they haven't dealt with a group that are able to come up with a solution and are non confrontational before which if true says something.
I totally accept the different country different conditions thing and have NEVER expected the au money, some have... But as someone else alluded to on here wrt, if you have a doj list, then that's what it is, blocking commands for each nz and vaa is a good will gesture thing for both I think and it's good that this has been done, but all nz on 01/07/2012 is not doj.
One of the reports that came from the company said that they basicly didnt really care about a list, it didnt make much difference to the company, but recognised the benifit for the pilot group, so I very much doubt they insisted that it be included as it could then open them up to issues which will not be discussed here, but to say that nz have done nothing after hearing about the integration doc is actually inaccurate...
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No Australian Pilot would be stupid or selfish enough to demand all the Pacific flying back to the detriment of NZ crew. If they did they would be taken out back a spoken to in a firm manner before a ceremonial beating.
VANZ are here to stay. The flying they do has been their for year and thats the was it should stay. We were promised it over a decade ago...Get over it everyone. We don't want to put them out of work and would hope they would feel the same about us.
VANZ are here to stay. The flying they do has been their for year and thats the was it should stay. We were promised it over a decade ago...Get over it everyone. We don't want to put them out of work and would hope they would feel the same about us.
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Fmc, good call...
the nz boys would definitely NOT try shaft you guys, we were asked to do some domestic flying- recovery flights, and that decision was put to AFAP and VIPA to okay. No reduction in conditions and pay was matched an approved by you guys so no worries here, we have your back...
the nz boys would definitely NOT try shaft you guys, we were asked to do some domestic flying- recovery flights, and that decision was put to AFAP and VIPA to okay. No reduction in conditions and pay was matched an approved by you guys so no worries here, we have your back...
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Lol ground hog day but another company, try being a QF F/O with 12 years in company and still no chance of command... It is all relative...
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Yep fair call, I think the days we have enjoyed at virgin of 3 years to command have passed, still quicker than the likes of Qantas and ANZ, but longer than we have been used to. Again, we all just need to look at other carriers to realise that we work for a pretty good company. But all companies have their issues, if it wasn't pay, we would be moaning about the quality of the meals we get on the plane...
I have an idea!
How about we drop the PB guys off the list and let them fly their own aircraft on their own patch.
Seems to me that this is all a bit too hard and I have yet to meet any crew wanting to transfer over to NZ so it will not upset too many if any in VAA or VAI.
How about we drop the PB guys off the list and let them fly their own aircraft on their own patch.
Seems to me that this is all a bit too hard and I have yet to meet any crew wanting to transfer over to NZ so it will not upset too many if any in VAA or VAI.
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I think you will find the majority of VANZ guys are willing to accept (doesnt mean stoked about it at all) the current senority list. Whilst it may not be fair to those promised things, such is life, and I know that most of the boys can see the forest for the trees.
The opportunity to be on a senority list of an Australian company whilst living and operating in nz under nz contract is unheard of. Personally I think straight doj with all commands protected for all 3 groups is fair, but I accept that is not what is on offer so I certainly wouldn't cut off my nose to spite my face. And if everyone is honest and the shoe was on the other foot I'm sure the situation would be the same. Pilots are a funny bunch and are fiercely protective of anyone getting ahead of them in their career.
I have heard of potential legal case surrounding the 08 start date given, but not sure how true that is and it would be a shame if something like that created divisions that the effects would be felt for many years to come.
You will find that any preferred progression for VANZ guys to oz is generally going to be towards vai. Most guys are not interested in the least for VAA. The few that are, are the Aussie guys, of which some are not going to be welcomed home with open arms due to, to be pc, ones who did not back up their co workers many years back. And who want the goods without being in a union
The boys see the long term potential in being part of the company, still perhaps the Mexicans if the company isn't going to come close in t's &c's, but at least not illegal Mexicans.
And with regards to widebodys in VANZ, it would be great and guys are hopeful one day, but also realistic. I suppose the oz boys probably hope they wouldn't go there. Only the company knows what it wants to do end of the day, so by them putting a long haul clause into current negotiation is only words as far as guys are concerned, a potential carrot just to keep everyone living in perpetual hope...
The opportunity to be on a senority list of an Australian company whilst living and operating in nz under nz contract is unheard of. Personally I think straight doj with all commands protected for all 3 groups is fair, but I accept that is not what is on offer so I certainly wouldn't cut off my nose to spite my face. And if everyone is honest and the shoe was on the other foot I'm sure the situation would be the same. Pilots are a funny bunch and are fiercely protective of anyone getting ahead of them in their career.
I have heard of potential legal case surrounding the 08 start date given, but not sure how true that is and it would be a shame if something like that created divisions that the effects would be felt for many years to come.
You will find that any preferred progression for VANZ guys to oz is generally going to be towards vai. Most guys are not interested in the least for VAA. The few that are, are the Aussie guys, of which some are not going to be welcomed home with open arms due to, to be pc, ones who did not back up their co workers many years back. And who want the goods without being in a union
The boys see the long term potential in being part of the company, still perhaps the Mexicans if the company isn't going to come close in t's &c's, but at least not illegal Mexicans.
And with regards to widebodys in VANZ, it would be great and guys are hopeful one day, but also realistic. I suppose the oz boys probably hope they wouldn't go there. Only the company knows what it wants to do end of the day, so by them putting a long haul clause into current negotiation is only words as far as guys are concerned, a potential carrot just to keep everyone living in perpetual hope...
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Min wage.
One of the most level headed, well thought out post I've seen in a while. With people like you in VANZ, I'm sure a good working relationship can evolve between all groups.
You should have access to the VB pilot site. There is a Pac Blue area there so I'm guessing you have all been invited and have logins.
If you logon You will read that many VAA and VAI crew are quite unhappy with integration as well. Many did not get what they wanted or wished for. I was once told a successful policy is one that everyone hates. That means there are no clear winners and that was the name of the game. A little bit for everyone, but not to much for anyone.
One of the most level headed, well thought out post I've seen in a while. With people like you in VANZ, I'm sure a good working relationship can evolve between all groups.
You should have access to the VB pilot site. There is a Pac Blue area there so I'm guessing you have all been invited and have logins.
If you logon You will read that many VAA and VAI crew are quite unhappy with integration as well. Many did not get what they wanted or wished for. I was once told a successful policy is one that everyone hates. That means there are no clear winners and that was the name of the game. A little bit for everyone, but not to much for anyone.
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Min wage, I absolutely agree with your post. 
And if it was up for a vote right now, I would be voting in favour, but not to say it is perfect, but at least it will prove that we are not here to take anyone else's job, screw anyone over.
Fmc, I don't honk we do have access to this forum, would be interested to know how to get on tho... Interesting that you guys are not happy with the intergration issue either but I still can't understand why it was put in.
And if it was up for a vote right now, I would be voting in favour, but not to say it is perfect, but at least it will prove that we are not here to take anyone else's job, screw anyone over.
Fmc, I don't honk we do have access to this forum, would be interested to know how to get on tho... Interesting that you guys are not happy with the intergration issue either but I still can't understand why it was put in.
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Another VANZ perspective
In addition to what minimum wage has written, I'd like too to put forth some thoughts from someone on the inside over the ditch.
First of all, it's incredible how a little bit of hearsay from one person can balloon into quoted facts and figures after a little while of which some come to rely upon to prove a point. Whilst a few longer serving guys are not happy with the way the list has turned out, you'll actually find, many can recognise the potential and possibilities of what has happened with the VAA guys recognising us. Although nobody has started with VANZ in more than a year, those FOs last to join have only potentially lost a matter of weeks or months recognition of their start date.
It's disappointing to see attitudes like ad-astra who view us as a bunch of faceless mexicans joining as an easy backdoor into VAA. How is it all too hard? At what point were you personally disadvantaged with VANZ being put on the bottom of the list? More often than not, these guys have applied for the PB/VANZ job to be in the country where they already lived and grew up and have little interest in flying au domestic operations, just as the aussies probably wouldn't want to fly domestic in NZ, even on the VAA conditions. I'm sure there are heaps of guys who'd love to do the pacific flying, but not on VANZ conditions. The simple fact is, nobody wants to transfer to NZ not because of the flying, but because the of the conditions. Who would with the salary differences between VA and VANZ!??
It's a real task trying to get the point across that the guys down here have no malicious intentions in what we're doing, nor are we biting at the heels of VAA to take your jobs. Put your hand up if someone from PB/VANZ has stepped in over the top of you for a role? Further to that, you are now GUARANTEED it will never happen with the DOJ list.
For some, VANZ will always be viewed as the place where people who couldn't get a job in domestic go, and unfortunately there's not a lot we can do about that. We are fighting hard in negotiations to improve our conditions, and we would hope that there are a few VAA and VAI guys out there who support that. With the company integration and leaps in certain conditions for VAA and VAI, VANZ have been doing our best to start aligning our conditions too. With over 90% union membership we are better situated than ever.
As long as the discrepancies in the T's and C's exists there will always be us and them from those who are earning more. Most VANZ guys love to have a chat with the VAA guys and I think to a large extent, the sentiment is reciprocated.
Some people are unhappy in VANZ about the list, but at the same time many see the potential and take the good with the bad. People in VAA and VAI are upset with the list too, but it was never going to make everyone happy. Everything that affects the VAA guys (VANZ domestic flying for eg) is done in good faith and nobody moves unless it is okayed by the right people. When VAA fly relief sectors to the islands, nobody here jumps up and down because we know the company wouldn't do it unless they needed to.
Anyway, I could go on and on. The bottom line is that we want to work together but we can only do it if you want to too.
First of all, it's incredible how a little bit of hearsay from one person can balloon into quoted facts and figures after a little while of which some come to rely upon to prove a point. Whilst a few longer serving guys are not happy with the way the list has turned out, you'll actually find, many can recognise the potential and possibilities of what has happened with the VAA guys recognising us. Although nobody has started with VANZ in more than a year, those FOs last to join have only potentially lost a matter of weeks or months recognition of their start date.
It's disappointing to see attitudes like ad-astra who view us as a bunch of faceless mexicans joining as an easy backdoor into VAA. How is it all too hard? At what point were you personally disadvantaged with VANZ being put on the bottom of the list? More often than not, these guys have applied for the PB/VANZ job to be in the country where they already lived and grew up and have little interest in flying au domestic operations, just as the aussies probably wouldn't want to fly domestic in NZ, even on the VAA conditions. I'm sure there are heaps of guys who'd love to do the pacific flying, but not on VANZ conditions. The simple fact is, nobody wants to transfer to NZ not because of the flying, but because the of the conditions. Who would with the salary differences between VA and VANZ!??
It's a real task trying to get the point across that the guys down here have no malicious intentions in what we're doing, nor are we biting at the heels of VAA to take your jobs. Put your hand up if someone from PB/VANZ has stepped in over the top of you for a role? Further to that, you are now GUARANTEED it will never happen with the DOJ list.
For some, VANZ will always be viewed as the place where people who couldn't get a job in domestic go, and unfortunately there's not a lot we can do about that. We are fighting hard in negotiations to improve our conditions, and we would hope that there are a few VAA and VAI guys out there who support that. With the company integration and leaps in certain conditions for VAA and VAI, VANZ have been doing our best to start aligning our conditions too. With over 90% union membership we are better situated than ever.
As long as the discrepancies in the T's and C's exists there will always be us and them from those who are earning more. Most VANZ guys love to have a chat with the VAA guys and I think to a large extent, the sentiment is reciprocated.
Some people are unhappy in VANZ about the list, but at the same time many see the potential and take the good with the bad. People in VAA and VAI are upset with the list too, but it was never going to make everyone happy. Everything that affects the VAA guys (VANZ domestic flying for eg) is done in good faith and nobody moves unless it is okayed by the right people. When VAA fly relief sectors to the islands, nobody here jumps up and down because we know the company wouldn't do it unless they needed to.
Anyway, I could go on and on. The bottom line is that we want to work together but we can only do it if you want to too.
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Great post. It's good to see we can work as one, hopefully a positive future for all. As I said in my first post I am heartened that VAA would support VANZ in negotiations. We can be an example for others.
namotu
I am not sure how my comment turned into me having an "attitude" such as you described.
I certainly hope that your terms and conditions are brought up to the same as VAA. I do understand that there are reasons for the disparities but certainly the payscales should be a lot closer at the very least!
It seems that the decision to incorporate the VANZ list in a group list without consulting the NZ pilots was a mistake.
With hindsight if that consultation had occoured and the prospect of a full datal list as wanted by some VANZ pilots was realised by the VAA pilots then the EBA vote may have been somewhat different or alternatively the integration model contained within the new EBA may have only included VAA and VAI to acheive a successful EBA outcome.
The prospect of another failed EBA vote and the companies promise that they would walk away from intergrating the pilot lists would have resulted in siloing of all three groups for the foreseeable future.
Not a prospect that at least 80% of the VAA pilots wanted.
If there is a challenge to the integration and consequently the NEW EBA which very importantly is still yet to be ratified by FWA then at least 80% of VAA pilots would most likely think that this is indeed "all too hard" and accept a VAA/VAI intergration without VANZ is better than no EBA at all.
For the vast majority of VAA pilots they are not directly affected by the inclusion of VANZ into the group list but if that inclusion results in the New EBA to be delayed or cancelled then their ambivalence to the issue most definately will change.
For those in VANZ that want to challenge the integration it is their right but be aware that as it is included in a yet to be ratified EBA the Pandoras Box they are opening cannot be closed.
I am not sure how my comment turned into me having an "attitude" such as you described.
I certainly hope that your terms and conditions are brought up to the same as VAA. I do understand that there are reasons for the disparities but certainly the payscales should be a lot closer at the very least!
It seems that the decision to incorporate the VANZ list in a group list without consulting the NZ pilots was a mistake.
With hindsight if that consultation had occoured and the prospect of a full datal list as wanted by some VANZ pilots was realised by the VAA pilots then the EBA vote may have been somewhat different or alternatively the integration model contained within the new EBA may have only included VAA and VAI to acheive a successful EBA outcome.
The prospect of another failed EBA vote and the companies promise that they would walk away from intergrating the pilot lists would have resulted in siloing of all three groups for the foreseeable future.
Not a prospect that at least 80% of the VAA pilots wanted.
If there is a challenge to the integration and consequently the NEW EBA which very importantly is still yet to be ratified by FWA then at least 80% of VAA pilots would most likely think that this is indeed "all too hard" and accept a VAA/VAI intergration without VANZ is better than no EBA at all.
For the vast majority of VAA pilots they are not directly affected by the inclusion of VANZ into the group list but if that inclusion results in the New EBA to be delayed or cancelled then their ambivalence to the issue most definately will change.
For those in VANZ that want to challenge the integration it is their right but be aware that as it is included in a yet to be ratified EBA the Pandoras Box they are opening cannot be closed.
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Namotu, great post agree with everything you say.
Four points
1. EBA negotiations should not have been part of integration. They are 2 very different things.
2. Because the company forced the issue, it became the au-unions responsibility to include NZALPA in the talks. And by talks I mean negotiations where compromises are reached.
3. AFAF and VIPA didn't invite NZALPA to REPRESENT VANZ. (Yes I know they visited, they were basically told this is how its going to happen)
4. A DOJ list was created that precludes VANZ real date of joining.
The saying "I'd rather eat $h!t because i don't like spinach" springs to mind. No one is going to have the policy undone. It's a good long term outcome, and lets face it most of us are at VA for a career.
The guys who transferred to VAI with the expectation of 08 may have a case, as they made the decision to transfer family and all with the 08 signed document in hand.
Four points
1. EBA negotiations should not have been part of integration. They are 2 very different things.
2. Because the company forced the issue, it became the au-unions responsibility to include NZALPA in the talks. And by talks I mean negotiations where compromises are reached.
3. AFAF and VIPA didn't invite NZALPA to REPRESENT VANZ. (Yes I know they visited, they were basically told this is how its going to happen)
4. A DOJ list was created that precludes VANZ real date of joining.
The saying "I'd rather eat $h!t because i don't like spinach" springs to mind. No one is going to have the policy undone. It's a good long term outcome, and lets face it most of us are at VA for a career.
The guys who transferred to VAI with the expectation of 08 may have a case, as they made the decision to transfer family and all with the 08 signed document in hand.