VIRGIN AUSTRALIA EBA
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bereal_getreal,
Hmmm, smells like HR scare tactics
and,
Oops, I smell that HR stench again
The company has made it very clear that its had a guts full of the whole integration show and I can see why. They have stated through the unions that if this fails we are headed for silos. Silos means 3-5% growth per annum if you are lucky. Don't forget, Tiger 320s are in the wings and we will start waving goodbye to Coffs, Ballina, Sunshine Coast and many others very shortly. Ejets are getting older and ATRs are getting newer (you got the picture - its not pretty). We will have to wait decades and decades for a left seat move if silos are the result.
and,
Finally pick your time pick your place. $23mil profit aint the time or place. When its in the hundreds of millions sure. 1982 is gone, time to face a new reality. The boom is gone, people are being retrenched. bereal_getreal.
Join Date: Mar 2005
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The CEO is not going to give us Business class so can we just stop wasting time going over the same diatribe over and over.
hey freight dog
what does the current eba say about first officer moves? for the sake of being even handed you should do that calculation as i am guessing that it will be a much bigger number if guys are stuck unable to move until they get a command
what does the current eba say about first officer moves? for the sake of being even handed you should do that calculation as i am guessing that it will be a much bigger number if guys are stuck unable to move until they get a command
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
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Are you aware that the nearest company approved A330 simulator with RR engines is 8 hrs paxing time away? I'm sorry that your time has been wasted.
QANTAS never had a 767 sim with RR engines, nor a 744 sim with GEs.
VB might want to use one with rollers, the FOI might want them also, but the regs don't require it.
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Hey Freight Dog
From what I hear a lot of the recent transfers from VAI are struggling, extra sims, extra line training, pulled offline etc. I wouldn't consider them too much of a threat. The company is not going to put someone with a poor performance history up for a type change or upgrade.
From what I hear a lot of the recent transfers from VAI are struggling, extra sims, extra line training, pulled offline etc. I wouldn't consider them too much of a threat. The company is not going to put someone with a poor performance history up for a type change or upgrade.
Join Date: May 2004
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Well I finally read some of the proposed doc. (thanks Greenie! 
)
So the 737 guys are really not getting much at all are they?? With no backpay and only 3% its not really even cost of living is it over the life of the agreement.
Also read the duty travel policy. That would have to be seriously the worst duty travel agreement in the industry wouldn't it?
)So the 737 guys are really not getting much at all are they?? With no backpay and only 3% its not really even cost of living is it over the life of the agreement.
Also read the duty travel policy. That would have to be seriously the worst duty travel agreement in the industry wouldn't it?
Join Date: May 2001
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As an observer from the opposition I would suggest you look into the soon to be completed deal for QF long haul.
The company wanted/threatened, no back pay, no First Class etc etc.
They grounded the company and it went to FWA
Guess what, they gained a few small efficiencies and life goes on for us with soon to be collected back pay, 3% per year, still pax P etc etc.
JB wants to compete, he may as well pay the price.
The company wanted/threatened, no back pay, no First Class etc etc.
They grounded the company and it went to FWA
Guess what, they gained a few small efficiencies and life goes on for us with soon to be collected back pay, 3% per year, still pax P etc etc.
JB wants to compete, he may as well pay the price.
Join Date: May 2007
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If you really want to gain an understanding of EBA negotiations & management tactics, have a read of this book -
It will also give an insight into the true relationship between management & pilots.
It will also give an insight into the true relationship between management & pilots.
Last edited by Oakape; 13th Mar 2013 at 23:48.
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don't use the virginetics website for anything else than the simulator notes. IT IS MONITORED BY MANAGEMENT PILOTS.
We all know about the "black list of pilots" and we all heard about the reasons why the most experienced CRM instructor in Australia was made redundant from Virgin.
Just be careful guys (it is better to use PPRuNe)....
We all know about the "black list of pilots" and we all heard about the reasons why the most experienced CRM instructor in Australia was made redundant from Virgin.
Just be careful guys (it is better to use PPRuNe)....
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Let me see. You started this thread by saying "management" closed down the old website. Now, apparently, they monitor the new one. You were incorrect first time, and who really gives a **** if they monitor the new one anyway? How would that be any different anyhow? Reckon you might need to get yourself a new tinfoil hat. The old one obviously leaks a bit. 
Last edited by porch monkey; 15th Mar 2013 at 00:31.
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honestly, porch monkey do you not care that the best CRM facilitator in Australia was made redundant because he stood up against corruption and he was against changing pilots training documents. Do you not care about the black list of pilots who never get promotions because they have expressed their opinions in open forums? Do you not care about budget airline salaries for Virgin? Do you not care about the fact the an Airbus captain has to pax in economy class from SYD to PER to operate safely back to SYD without fatigue. What do you care about?
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union, very sound advice. For those who like privacy and don't want to be monitored by I.T on behalf of HR, I would suggest refraining from using work computers or IPhones for anything other than legitimate work activities. I.T use tracking software, key logger programmes and other such software to watch you, so don't be naive and think that they don't. And when the time suits them they can and will use it against you, and often you won't even officially know. Missed promotions, career stalling, extra 'people management' by supervisors/managers, its all part of their game. Hell, they can even run a scan for porn watchers/users/downloaders/sharers/savers and simply target some individuals while choosing to ignore others doing the same thing!
I know personally of one government council who has covertly installed tracking program's on maintenance staff work cars. The software records where and when they travelled, how long it took, how long they stopped at each location, even how many times the vehicles doors were opened, I kid you not....so be careful.
Now, I'm not saying VA's loyal, people friendly fair and equitable HR team would ever stoop to undertaking such spineless, gutless and pathetic actions, as that would display a sense of weakness and having no balls, but hey you never can tell these days, isn't that right HR?? I mean that would be as low as displaying nepotism towards family and friends within the company, and surely would never occur?
I know personally of one government council who has covertly installed tracking program's on maintenance staff work cars. The software records where and when they travelled, how long it took, how long they stopped at each location, even how many times the vehicles doors were opened, I kid you not....so be careful.
Now, I'm not saying VA's loyal, people friendly fair and equitable HR team would ever stoop to undertaking such spineless, gutless and pathetic actions, as that would display a sense of weakness and having no balls, but hey you never can tell these days, isn't that right HR?? I mean that would be as low as displaying nepotism towards family and friends within the company, and surely would never occur?
Last edited by Cactusjack; 15th Mar 2013 at 02:47.
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I would like to thank you all for the input you have made here. As someone from the opposition and smaller brother I have gained a fair bit of what the attitude is in regard to this EBA. I have read all the updates as well.
To me, as someone who has built up a significant amount of flying experience, it is quite disappointing to see how pilots fight over one thing. It is seniority. What a frigging joke.
Choosing to be a pilot in Australia really is a **** career choice! Virgin Australia was the featured 'golden child' for job choice over the last 3-4 years. I can say though, now as the company matures and growth declines, pilot opportunities will also decline in rate of turnover and therefor promotion.
Just remember one thing in this country for those younger pilots. It doesn't matter your performance. Just be lazy, get a pass only, get onto a seniority lis as early as possible and pay for it as much as you need to!
Well done boys and girls. You deserve this debate!
To me, as someone who has built up a significant amount of flying experience, it is quite disappointing to see how pilots fight over one thing. It is seniority. What a frigging joke.
Choosing to be a pilot in Australia really is a **** career choice! Virgin Australia was the featured 'golden child' for job choice over the last 3-4 years. I can say though, now as the company matures and growth declines, pilot opportunities will also decline in rate of turnover and therefor promotion.
Just remember one thing in this country for those younger pilots. It doesn't matter your performance. Just be lazy, get a pass only, get onto a seniority lis as early as possible and pay for it as much as you need to!
Well done boys and girls. You deserve this debate!
"Blind Freddy can see this EBA will get through"
Big call from an "observer". The result is far from certain at this stage.
Scare enough people and it will get up. That seems to be the tactic we are seeing again.
Big call from an "observer". The result is far from certain at this stage.
Scare enough people and it will get up. That seems to be the tactic we are seeing again.
History certainly has a habit of repeating itself, VA is no different.
Oh and just for the record, I once overheard a conversation by management in a different department about organising key logger software to be installed on a computer. Not tinfoil hat stuff.
Oh and just for the record, I once overheard a conversation by management in a different department about organising key logger software to be installed on a computer. Not tinfoil hat stuff.
Last edited by Servo; 19th Mar 2013 at 05:46.
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Whether they are different or not isn't the point. No one should be under any illusion that management is anything but management everywhere you go these days. The point is, what are you going to do about it, or what is it going to cost you to do something about it? And will you win? The answer only YOU as an individual can answer. I don't give a toss whether anyone is monitoring what I do at work. Even here. If you think having a nom de plume gives you any anonymity you're kidding yourself. VA might be a lot of things, but as a place to work I can only go with what I've experienced. I've worked for a f%cking lot worse. If you think it will change anything, vote no and try your luck. That's what it amounts to. Cost us $$ last time......
Oh, and I overheard a manager say once that VA was getting A320's. What exactly does that prove?
Oh, and I overheard a manager say once that VA was getting A320's. What exactly does that prove?
Last edited by porch monkey; 15th Mar 2013 at 06:48.
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This new EBA includes:
no real payrise for the B737 (only CPI),
we still have no credit for the 30 minutes sign off time when calculating max duty times,
flight duty limitations Table B can still be used if a MEL or SYD crew transits PER, which means that someone can sign on at 3 AM and be rosterred for 12hrs (how safe is that?),
paxing in economy class,
no proper crew meals, and
no "back pay".
The last time I voted in 2007 only 53% of pilots agreed to the current EBA (big victory for the company, since they offered the bare minumum and the pilots voted yes for it)
This EBA is not much better, but I guess pilots will not stick together to try to improve the terms and conditions.
History has proven that most pilots accept anything without any thoughts. For example, when the 777 or the A330 was introduced people accepted it without even knowing the salaries. Commuters still take drafts from BNE during their off days and therby shooting themselves in the foot. Company is probably laughing at us pilots since they know that they can do what ever they want with us and we will still happily accept it.
no real payrise for the B737 (only CPI),
we still have no credit for the 30 minutes sign off time when calculating max duty times,
flight duty limitations Table B can still be used if a MEL or SYD crew transits PER, which means that someone can sign on at 3 AM and be rosterred for 12hrs (how safe is that?),
paxing in economy class,
no proper crew meals, and
no "back pay".
The last time I voted in 2007 only 53% of pilots agreed to the current EBA (big victory for the company, since they offered the bare minumum and the pilots voted yes for it)
This EBA is not much better, but I guess pilots will not stick together to try to improve the terms and conditions.
History has proven that most pilots accept anything without any thoughts. For example, when the 777 or the A330 was introduced people accepted it without even knowing the salaries. Commuters still take drafts from BNE during their off days and therby shooting themselves in the foot. Company is probably laughing at us pilots since they know that they can do what ever they want with us and we will still happily accept it.
I'm an outside observer and fellow LCC pilot working in the U.S. I also use VAA exclusively if I pay for a ticket, including your business class trans-pacific product. Kudos; excellent service and a very comfortable 14 hour journey.
Regarding deadhead and Staff travel in Business class, and as a point of reference for you from a similar type airline contract -
1. If a Business class seat is available within 30 minutes of departure it will be assigned to the crew. This applies to staff travel and deadhead.
2. If the deadhead segment is over 5 hours or precedes a red eye transcon, business class will be assigned to crew. This was introduced partly as a result of crew arriving after a 5 hour transcon in economy, faced with operating another 5 hours back and promptly walking of the aircraft and calling in fatigued. Stranding 140 pax in Seattle or San Francisco.
3. Only aisle or window seats may be assigned to crew.
It's my opinion that deadheading in Business class is in fact a matter of safety in many circumstances. It's my observation; when pax are aware that you are working, they appreciate the fact that you are less likely to become a fatigue hazard on subsequent flights due to a business class seat.
I hope you'll excuse the intrusion. It's your contract, however I thought a constructive comparison of other pilots T&Cs may be usefull.
Regarding deadhead and Staff travel in Business class, and as a point of reference for you from a similar type airline contract -
1. If a Business class seat is available within 30 minutes of departure it will be assigned to the crew. This applies to staff travel and deadhead.
2. If the deadhead segment is over 5 hours or precedes a red eye transcon, business class will be assigned to crew. This was introduced partly as a result of crew arriving after a 5 hour transcon in economy, faced with operating another 5 hours back and promptly walking of the aircraft and calling in fatigued. Stranding 140 pax in Seattle or San Francisco.
3. Only aisle or window seats may be assigned to crew.
It's my opinion that deadheading in Business class is in fact a matter of safety in many circumstances. It's my observation; when pax are aware that you are working, they appreciate the fact that you are less likely to become a fatigue hazard on subsequent flights due to a business class seat.
I hope you'll excuse the intrusion. It's your contract, however I thought a constructive comparison of other pilots T&Cs may be usefull.
Just remember one thing in this country for those younger pilots. It doesn't matter your performance. Just be lazy, get a pass only, get onto a seniority lis as early as possible and pay for it as much as you need to!