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3 x major Virgin annoucements today

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3 x major Virgin annoucements today

Old 30th Oct 2012, 03:42
  #41 (permalink)  
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unless they had significant hours to meet minimums for a 777 FO
Out of interest, what are these minimums?
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 04:09
  #42 (permalink)  
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Big win for Tiger and Skywest employees... however for all winners expect some losers.

Interesting now Virgins ownership - Branson 26%, Air NZ 20%, Etihad 10%, Singapore 10% -- 66% before you count anyone else on the register - hardly Virgin "Australia" anymore.
With all these shareholders sitting around the board table I can't see Virgin getting many more international aircraft - they don't want the competition

And a nice way for SQ to effectively get rid of Tiger Australia without "loss of face"
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 04:23
  #43 (permalink)  
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Yes well done JB.

Meanwhile I met two very influential business owners this morning who told me they have taken all their corporate business away from Qantas as Joyce has ignored their protests at the lack of premium QF services worldwide. All they recieved in response to emails was an automated fob off.

As a Rio Tinto employee, we have always used Qlink when flying outside charter commutes,significant number of bums on seats. A directive came from management recently, we are to use VA for these flights from now on wherever possible. And we ARE following that directive,I flew out of Newman on the E-jet last weekend.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 04:33
  #44 (permalink)  
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So let me get this straight-
  • One of the airlines of the domestic duopoly is buying a major share of a LCC as a vehicle for growth
  • Pilots are salivating at the thought of quick promotion and getting hot under the collar as to who has the greater seniority.
  • Singapore Airlines is seen as the great benefactor with "big plans"
  • One of the regional entities is called Skywest
Why after 20+ years in airlines does nothing change yet we think the wheel has just been invented.

"May you live in interesting times" is a Chinese curse not a blessing.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 04:51
  #45 (permalink)  
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And a nice way for SQ to effectively get rid of Tiger Australia without "loss of face"
Not really. Remember SQ just upped its stake in Virgin Australia so maintains a beneficial interest.

Not sure why all the concern about seniority. The reports indicate the operations will be kept 'strictly separate' so no blurring of the boundaries or transfer of value (revenues or costs) between the entities - unlike the red white silver orange conglomerate. I foresee someone at Tiger wanting to transfer to Virgin would have to apply, win the job, and resign from their previous post. Seniority would be part of the salary structure negotiation at the time of application/offer of employment. Good luck with that!
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 05:09
  #46 (permalink)  
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And with the Tiger fleet about to treble, don't be suckered into an MOU type agreement.

Virgin Pilots are now more expensive than Tiger Pilots. It might not be JB, but the next bean counter to trick their way into the hot seat will no doubt be dreaming up their KPI bonus.

Whilst all these moves are great for Virgin and JB is showing his outstanding management ability, Qantas has already done all this.

I just hope for the Virgin folk that the execution is a little more humane than the big fist style on coward street.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 05:41
  #47 (permalink)  

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The QF crew did not learn from the experiences of others and I suspect the now Virgin Group crew will ignore any suggestions made by QF crew.
B772, which part of 'learn from the mistakes made by QF group pilots' do you not get?
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 06:06
  #48 (permalink)  
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SMH article Qantas under attack on all fronts | Virgin Australia puts it well!
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 06:44
  #49 (permalink)  
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Great posts and sdage advice from KEG and Angryrat. Very important for the VAA guys to get the scope clauses in their EBA RIGHT!

Whilst there are some VB pilots who are salivating at the chance for A320/F100 commands, I doubt that this will happen. Read between the lines of the Press Release: Skywest and Tiger will retain their existing operational structure. There will be no way that VB pilots can expect to usurp the current promotional paradigm at XR or the Tiger.

What has been revelealed is the (disgusting!) propensity for Australian pilots to demend entitlement to promotions that are not rightfully theirs. I am tired of the dummy-spits from those who seek to change the rules to suit themselves. This 'attribute' of Australian pilots will be/is the instrument of our downfall! Without fair and reasonable dealings with other pilots, there will never be any improvement in our Ts&Cs.

As examples:

1) As a group, the VB pilots expect a group Date of Joining list to apply to all promotions: except when it comes to commands at VB. In the later instance, the perspective is that promotions there 'belong' to the VB FOs. The result of this is that B777 commands are to be awarded to domestic captains. The cohort of B777 Senior First Officers cannot gain a B777 command, nor can they be considered for a B737/ejet command. I suppose that the VB pilots think that this is fair!

2) Plenty of the CrzFOs on the B777 had the same experience that would have gotten them in VB. Most guys and gals had 4-6000 hrs and previous Regional and /or GA jet command time on coming to the B777-Please stop perpetuating this myth that they are inexperienced (Growler!)! Several CzFOs have held B727, B737 and B757 FO positions and have above the 2000+ hrs. jet FO time to be a SFO (unless you are a protected species VB FO- only need 1000hrs).


A few nights ago, I had a few beers with amte who is a Qantas Captain. We engaged in dicourse regarding the state of the industry and he coined the phase "era of smartarse politics" . I instinctively knew what he meant. We have come to a point where what people can legally get away with becomes the standard for behaviour. At one time, people knew that what separated right-from-wrong was defined by cultural mores and accepted social norms. The law became a backstop if there was a point of contention. "Smartarse Politics now is a cancer that pervades our National and industrial politics.

The letter of the law (which should be seen as a minimum standard) now becomes the accepted norm. If it legal, then it is OK. So if it is legal to behave immorally or unethically, it is still ok. As one VB capatin told me "there are more of us than there are of you and we will get our way at your expense-that's the democratic process". Really? So it is ok to ruin the career propects of other pilots just because you can vote it that way? Nice. I mean, really nice!

The only 2 ways to apply a promotional system across the Virgin group are either silo the business units so as the existing pilots have opportunities in their chosen group or group DoJ with no ifs, buts or exceptions. Anyone who what one set of rules for promotions one way, but not the other is being a smartarse.

Fortunately, most smartarses outsmart themselves; the new low that they set for themselves will come back to haunt them. These pilots are our natural industrial enemies. For obvious reasons, I call them bricklayers.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 06:56
  #50 (permalink)  
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Well said.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 08:13
  #51 (permalink)  
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Anthill, great post. As I said - even playing field would be nice.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 08:43
  #52 (permalink)  
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I agree with what you are saying. It appears that the traffic is a little one way. Personally I would like to see everyone have their career progression prospects that they had when they signed on met as a starting point, then integrate under the provision that no group of pilots has a windfall at anothers expense.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 09:32
  #53 (permalink)  
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It is very interesting how this good news story for aviation and business intellect, has degenerated into an issue about rights of a specific group of employees before the ink is dry.

Perhaps it shows the heightened sensitivities based on history, but this is potentially a very significant industry event that is worthy of letting the dust settle before you start slugging it out between each other as to who should get what.

If the company does well then all will prosper even if it is mainly owned offshore, because there is no way that with the rat anyone will prosper except the select few at the top.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 11:09
  #54 (permalink)  
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Well said that Man!
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 12:40
  #55 (permalink)  
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Not sure why all the concern about seniority. The reports indicate the operations will be kept 'strictly separate' so no blurring of the boundaries or transfer of value (revenues or costs) between the entities - unlike the red white silver orange conglomerate. I foresee someone at Tiger wanting to transfer to Virgin would have to apply, win the job, and resign from their previous post. Seniority would be part of the salary structure negotiation at the time of application/offer of employment. Good luck with that!
I agree with Mr VH-Cheer Up and Anthill (An excellent post by the way)

I read it as no intergration.

As for the deal I was never great at business but I do see this as a risky deal. JB is looking at growing the group as he should and he is a good fella, but he has paid $35mil for 60% of an Airline losing $15mil a month, sold 10% of Virgin at market price, agreed on cofunding another $60mil for further aircraft purchases for Tiger.and launched a takeover bid for Skywest Effectively already spending the $100 odd mil Sing has paid plus more of Virgins cash.On top of that Tiger Austhhas to pay an annual Licence fee to Sing Air for the next 20 years plus a further $5mil if they hit certain financial targets.

I'm sure if anyone can turn around Tiger JB can, he has the runs on the board and is a genuine Aviation Manager with real experience. It is surely a positive the Tiger guys and girls but as I read it he and his management teram are going to have to work their tits off to stop the cash burn at Tiger.

Interesting times that is for sure but I am not sure intergration of the Pilot Group is at the top of the to do list just yet.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 12:41
  #56 (permalink)  
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I don't know about degenerated. This is a pilot's network after all, so how this affects pilots is likely to come up immediately and is entirely appropriate.

It is true that if the company profits every employee should do well even if they are stove piped in their current company within the group. but this does not mean that the pilot group could not collectively do better together.

Mr Snuffaluffagus, it would be great if we could all have the same career prospects that existed when we joined our employers (assuming they were good to start with) but that doesn't exist in any company, regardless of mergers or take overs. I know that if the lists are integrated traffic will not be all one way. And what constitutes a windfall at the expense of someone else? Not everyone wants the same thing, and what we want or need changes over time. So whilst an opportunity may disappear for some n the short term that same person may benefit from a different option down track that would otherwise not have been available.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 13:47
  #57 (permalink)  
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anthill, I was responding to a post which said the crfo's joined with little experience and no illusions of progression. If they are infact experienced, then I retract. Regardless, from where I sit, it appears that (similar to Jetstar and the MOU) while there was a general understanding that there was no career path, it was hoped that it would change. It hasn't to date.

When one looks at how various operations came into existence, one sees an example of new lows becoming the standard, and I can understand why a long serving VB employee may feel a sense of being denied a career opportunity on the 777(again similar to QF/JS and the MOU). Of course thats just the way VB wanted to set up their LH operation, so its legal, it's ok.

While we are putting myths to bed, the so called "protected species" vb fo's require 2000 hours jet, not 1000, to become a SFO (senior FO wtf is that anyway?) so check your sources.

I certainly agree though that it is disgusting that pilots will step all over each other when they sniff any sort of opportunity. Hopefully the VA integration can be clearly resolved so that this kind of behaviour can't reap any benefit.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 20:11
  #58 (permalink)  
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I don't know why you guys are getting so exited, last I checked Tiger is making big losses with no sign of stemming the outflow of cash and so is VA. So basically JB has paid out 35M to pay 60% of Tigers debts. VA now has a branding issue with a mess of mismatched interiors, paint jobs service inconsistencies, poor on time performance and now another brand that to the public is not in any way associated with VA.

My long term money is still on QF coming through although it may take a change of some top brass.

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Old 30th Oct 2012, 20:18
  #59 (permalink)  
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Righto. Let's get back on topic, shall we?
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 20:25
  #60 (permalink)  
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Yippee, instant commands for all, instant integration of all seniority numbers with me on the top getting what the world owes me

These entities will be kept separate with their own AOC's and management structure, the only changes being cosmetic, the inclusion of the velocity flyer programme, perhaps some changes to the terms and conditions of carriage and a seamless check-in between the various entities that are under the whole umbrella. But keep dreaming
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