6 Grand Business Class to Europe
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6 Grand Business Class to Europe
Read an interesting article that QF are currently offering Business to Europe for 6G, Virgin Atlantic slightly cheaper and a China carrier cheaper again.....
Does it really cost this much to provide this service?
If it was exactly double ECON fares (about 4 grand) I know sooo many more people that would spend the extra. More than double seems to be a "mental" hurdle.
4 Grand would sell like hotcakes....
Does it really cost this much to provide this service?
If it was exactly double ECON fares (about 4 grand) I know sooo many more people that would spend the extra. More than double seems to be a "mental" hurdle.
4 Grand would sell like hotcakes....
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If the international sector doesn't go bust soon Joyce will put the price up to 9k for the trip. Gotta get rid of those overpaid long haul Pilots some how and get underpaid Orangestar Drivers to perform the same task at a tenth of the salary!
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Could the cost of the aircraft go down or could we depreciate them much more rapidly instead?
China is making some commercial metal? How are good/cheap will they be?
China is making some commercial metal? How are good/cheap will they be?
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Could the cost of the aircraft go down or could we depreciate them much more rapidly instead?
China is making some commercial metal? How are good/cheap will they be?
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Joyce is doing a marvelous job of depreciating the value of the entire airline!
Packer left the board quietly.....
I think he got the job after One Tel to boost his profile again, must have seen it coming second time i guess
Last edited by catch18; 31st Jul 2012 at 11:50.
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Does it really cost this much to provide this service?
A bottle of standard spirits retails for about $35 at Dan Murphy's (and that's still retail ie marked up to the nines) but you'll be paying a lot more for one of the 37-38 nips per bottle at Cloudland, plus the postmix if you're a heathen who adds softdrink to spirits at about 2c a glass, another 2c for the ice and a couple of bucks purchase price for the reusable tempered glass, which (in fairness) you may break or inadvertently flush down the toilet
. If you're into cocktails where some bogan bartender smooshes two raspberries and cordial into the mix and gives it a fancy name, you'll part with about $18 a glass. Every weekend thousands of people pay just that (ten times or so
) for a product that costs a couple of dollars. They're not actually buying a nip of vodka, two raspberries and cordial in a rented two dollar glass, but an image; an illusion. Of course that's what pays for the swanko venue, the security, the liquor license and the owner's new Merc 
, but it's far in excess of the actual product value. Companies charge what they think they can get away with, particularly for 'premium' products. The actual product cost has nothing to do with it. It's usually about scarcity (eg caviar) or association (eg Chanel).
IMO the actual value in business class is the extra legroom and the nevereding drinks service. Whether it's worth an extra four grand or so is irrelevant if that's what people will pay.
The question is whether people will pay it. Cloudland gets away with it because it's a happening place. Is Qantas Business class a happening place? Time will tell. They won't drop the price to four grand anymore than Cloudland will drop the cocktails to $12 unless they find people won't pay it. You want a slightly better deal? Buy bottle shop beer and a pizza, or an economy ticket. Either way, if they're smart they'll still be making a profit, and any loss will be paid for by the premium customers. Just ask Wesfarmers.
Turn up at the grocery shop and buy nothing but discount items and they'll hate you. However, they know that almost no-one does that. Most people turn up, buy the 60c beans and splurge on the attractively displayed hot smoked salmon at a 200% profit. Supply and demand.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 31st Jul 2012 at 12:43.
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Worrals, you appear to be good with numbers.
Can you compare the cabin space real-estate of a business class sky-bed (say a block of 12) to the number of economy class seats you could otherwise fit in that space?
Assuming an aircraft is space-limited (not weight-limited) - how does that add up?
Can you compare the cabin space real-estate of a business class sky-bed (say a block of 12) to the number of economy class seats you could otherwise fit in that space?
Assuming an aircraft is space-limited (not weight-limited) - how does that add up?
Look at how much less dense the seating is in business class compared to economy, fewer people are paying for the real estate. Also there are fewer people paying the costs of the flight attendants.
Meals and drinks are of a higher standard, an amenity kit is generally given and lounge access needs to be provided. Frequent flyer miles accrue at a higher rate than economy.
As stated earlier airlines will charge what they can get away with, on high demand routes, business class runs at around four times the price of an economy ticket. London to New York, Hong Kong and the Middle East have high load factors in the premium cabins with companies or cashed up individuals paying the bill.
On routes with low demand, a business class ticket may run about twice the price of economy. Premium travel ex Bangkok can be a real bargain with tickets on the London route around 2/3 the price of the similar length Singapore - London route.
Less popular routes offer better deals for using frequent flyer miles. An airline would rather sell a business class seat for real money rather than allow miles to be redeemed on premium routes, therefore few seats are made available at a high number of miles. On leisure routes they are quite happy for you to burn up your miles in an otherwise empty cabin.
Typically non stop flights command a premium and a ticket may be cheaper from A to B to C than it is from B to C even though you are flying further and will be on the same aircraft for the last leg.
Tickets may be cheaper when originating in third world countries, Cairo - London return may be far cheaper than London - Cairo return. In the USA a return ticket from Kansas City to Miami is far cheaper than a return from Miami to Kansas, reason is that someone from Kansas going to Miami is going on holiday and can easily switch destinations if he gets a better offer. Someone going from Miami to Kansas is going there for a specific reason (business/family etc) and can't change destination.
Like any business, airlines charge what the market will bear.
Meals and drinks are of a higher standard, an amenity kit is generally given and lounge access needs to be provided. Frequent flyer miles accrue at a higher rate than economy.
As stated earlier airlines will charge what they can get away with, on high demand routes, business class runs at around four times the price of an economy ticket. London to New York, Hong Kong and the Middle East have high load factors in the premium cabins with companies or cashed up individuals paying the bill.
On routes with low demand, a business class ticket may run about twice the price of economy. Premium travel ex Bangkok can be a real bargain with tickets on the London route around 2/3 the price of the similar length Singapore - London route.
Less popular routes offer better deals for using frequent flyer miles. An airline would rather sell a business class seat for real money rather than allow miles to be redeemed on premium routes, therefore few seats are made available at a high number of miles. On leisure routes they are quite happy for you to burn up your miles in an otherwise empty cabin.
Typically non stop flights command a premium and a ticket may be cheaper from A to B to C than it is from B to C even though you are flying further and will be on the same aircraft for the last leg.
Tickets may be cheaper when originating in third world countries, Cairo - London return may be far cheaper than London - Cairo return. In the USA a return ticket from Kansas City to Miami is far cheaper than a return from Miami to Kansas, reason is that someone from Kansas going to Miami is going on holiday and can easily switch destinations if he gets a better offer. Someone going from Miami to Kansas is going there for a specific reason (business/family etc) and can't change destination.
Like any business, airlines charge what the market will bear.
I have always been curious
If the average load factor for an airline is 80-85%, why do they not use that 15%-20% to improve their product. Eg, why do they not decrease the capacity, their price on premium product. It seems to be a waste in an ultra competitive market to have planes that have an extra 15% more product that you can use against the competition.
It would be easy to market economy that has a little extra room, fly the plane full but build the business.
I guess accountants only see numbers.
If the average load factor for an airline is 80-85%, why do they not use that 15%-20% to improve their product. Eg, why do they not decrease the capacity, their price on premium product. It seems to be a waste in an ultra competitive market to have planes that have an extra 15% more product that you can use against the competition.
It would be easy to market economy that has a little extra room, fly the plane full but build the business.
I guess accountants only see numbers.
Last edited by mikk_13; 31st Jul 2012 at 15:11.
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If the average load factor for an airline is 80-85%
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Looking at the density is right.
On the A380 I would say 2 business seats = ~9 economy ( a bit less on the older 747s)
So that $6000 business fare equivalent to $1333 for economy.
And yes the $6000 was a super special.
On the A380 I would say 2 business seats = ~9 economy ( a bit less on the older 747s)
So that $6000 business fare equivalent to $1333 for economy.
And yes the $6000 was a super special.
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An interesting comparison is SQ's A345 which has 100 4-abreast all Business seats for non-stop ops to the US...
SeatGuru Seat Map Singapore Airlines Airbus A340-500 (345)
...and the almost identical tube used on its A333s which features 255 8-abreast (7 at rear) Economy and 30 6-abreast Business seats.
SeatGuru Seat Map Singapore Airlines Airbus A330-300 (333)
SeatGuru Seat Map Singapore Airlines Airbus A340-500 (345)
...and the almost identical tube used on its A333s which features 255 8-abreast (7 at rear) Economy and 30 6-abreast Business seats.
SeatGuru Seat Map Singapore Airlines Airbus A330-300 (333)
Recently, Qantas ran a business class full page ad in the weekend SMH. The visual for mine was very tacky and in no way 'spoke' to the business customer. The image was two seated Olympians being served by a flight attendant. Both athletes were in sports gear, one wearing a singlet.
Copious amounts of fine prints & conditions coupled with prices splashed across the ad. It was an economy styled ad pitched at business people. Massively conflicting messages and all about price!
Turn over two pages and there's Etihad's Business Class ad. Not a price to be seen & no conditions or fine print. It espoused quality and a business grade service. A flight attendant in a brilliant white tunic serving a businessman in a semi reclined seat. Clearly on marketing message.
Next edition, Cathay's Business Class ad. Similar look to Ethihad's - nothing on price all about service and ease of doing business.
Now ask, which airline has had the most recognised standing for longevity, safety, airmanship & reliability built up over 70+ years? Which airline now chooses price as its point of difference?
For mine, its because the QF management team have trashed the brand so far the marketing team believe they've got nothing to market. The brand equity is all but gone. Right down to the mailroom boy, the staff are fed the nonsense if they don't cut costs they're all doomed.
Marketers acknowledge purchase motivation is based on either hope or fear. Price comes well down the list in determining a purchase. The actual real, determining factor of any purchase is not price, its can you deliver what you say you can.
QF worked very hard at this, albeit with public backing for most of the years.
Could it be turned around so the QF brand could be utilised to successfully recapture market share, boost yields and return long haul to profitability. Unquestionably. Is there the leader & board-in-waiting ready to step up?
Not sure?
What is for sure, gain a customer on price and you will lose them just as fast. Win a customer on consistent, repeated & identifiable value and you've created a dependable revenue stream for life.
Copious amounts of fine prints & conditions coupled with prices splashed across the ad. It was an economy styled ad pitched at business people. Massively conflicting messages and all about price!
Turn over two pages and there's Etihad's Business Class ad. Not a price to be seen & no conditions or fine print. It espoused quality and a business grade service. A flight attendant in a brilliant white tunic serving a businessman in a semi reclined seat. Clearly on marketing message.
Next edition, Cathay's Business Class ad. Similar look to Ethihad's - nothing on price all about service and ease of doing business.
Now ask, which airline has had the most recognised standing for longevity, safety, airmanship & reliability built up over 70+ years? Which airline now chooses price as its point of difference?
For mine, its because the QF management team have trashed the brand so far the marketing team believe they've got nothing to market. The brand equity is all but gone. Right down to the mailroom boy, the staff are fed the nonsense if they don't cut costs they're all doomed.
Marketers acknowledge purchase motivation is based on either hope or fear. Price comes well down the list in determining a purchase. The actual real, determining factor of any purchase is not price, its can you deliver what you say you can.
QF worked very hard at this, albeit with public backing for most of the years.
Could it be turned around so the QF brand could be utilised to successfully recapture market share, boost yields and return long haul to profitability. Unquestionably. Is there the leader & board-in-waiting ready to step up?
Not sure?
What is for sure, gain a customer on price and you will lose them just as fast. Win a customer on consistent, repeated & identifiable value and you've created a dependable revenue stream for life.
Thanks Dragun.
I think aviation, & business generally in Australia, is becoming less about doing a brilliant job to 'how much can we make?' Quality & great value still generates good money.
It will do a full circle.
I think aviation, & business generally in Australia, is becoming less about doing a brilliant job to 'how much can we make?' Quality & great value still generates good money.
It will do a full circle.
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Recently flew with Etihad on business class. Service and aircraft excellent. As I didn't get favorite seat they put me in 1st on next leg.
Qantas pee'd me off years back with very poor service in economy. I switched and my spending increased but why would you choose Qantas.
AJ appears to be at war with his employees.
Qantas employees are a cost. Perhaps treating them as an asset might help.
Qantas pee'd me off years back with very poor service in economy. I switched and my spending increased but why would you choose Qantas.
AJ appears to be at war with his employees.
Qantas employees are a cost. Perhaps treating them as an asset might help.
