ABC Radio Intervew Richard de Crespigny
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To MASTEMA,
I was an airbus captain, but fortunately flew Boeings and was taught by the people that built those marvellous aeroplanes in the place where they were built. The red "LAND ASAP" in airbus speak generally means for airbus pilots to go "Woooolllooooollloo! We must put this plastic froggy ****-box on the ground immediately."
This is surely the path to an easy death. More people have been killed by the immediate return, than those who stay clear of the ground (the only thing that can kill you) and SORT OUT THE PROBLEM.
Get the crew and ATC involved, contact company, engineering, and fly the friggin aircraft. Double hydraulics failure in an airbutt is red "LAND ASAP". You really gonna do that? Ever tried triple hyd failure in the sim?
Grow up. You have a brain, two eyes and a crew to help, Those who worked for "The best airline Ever (to go broke)" always told me that you can never land with any outstanding ECAM. Bollocks!
RPTC de Crespingy had used experience to determine what the problem was, what actions had to be taken - and did so. Landed with 84 Ecams outstanding.
Well done, I say
The fact you're capitalising on it now - poor show!
Ned G
Mmmmmmbzzzgdarlingmmzz
I was an airbus captain, but fortunately flew Boeings and was taught by the people that built those marvellous aeroplanes in the place where they were built. The red "LAND ASAP" in airbus speak generally means for airbus pilots to go "Woooolllooooollloo! We must put this plastic froggy ****-box on the ground immediately."
This is surely the path to an easy death. More people have been killed by the immediate return, than those who stay clear of the ground (the only thing that can kill you) and SORT OUT THE PROBLEM.
Get the crew and ATC involved, contact company, engineering, and fly the friggin aircraft. Double hydraulics failure in an airbutt is red "LAND ASAP". You really gonna do that? Ever tried triple hyd failure in the sim?
Grow up. You have a brain, two eyes and a crew to help, Those who worked for "The best airline Ever (to go broke)" always told me that you can never land with any outstanding ECAM. Bollocks!
RPTC de Crespingy had used experience to determine what the problem was, what actions had to be taken - and did so. Landed with 84 Ecams outstanding.
Well done, I say
The fact you're capitalising on it now - poor show!
Ned G
Mmmmmmbzzzgdarlingmmzz
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Capt Fathom
According to Airbus and many other reputable resources, ‘LAND ASAP'is defined as "within 60 mins".
During this serious (and very important learning) event, all checklists were complete within 50 mins of engine #2 exploding and the subsequent serious fuel leak commencing. (Ref: ATSB report)
It was 236 mins (almost 4hrs) until engine #1 was finally suffocated by the fire crew, while the serious fuel leak continued and various ignition sources prevailed . (Ref: ATSB report)
More than a few people here (including yourself) seem to think this is completely irrelevant and acceptable.
According to Airbus and many other reputable resources, ‘LAND ASAP'is defined as "within 60 mins".
During this serious (and very important learning) event, all checklists were complete within 50 mins of engine #2 exploding and the subsequent serious fuel leak commencing. (Ref: ATSB report)
It was 236 mins (almost 4hrs) until engine #1 was finally suffocated by the fire crew, while the serious fuel leak continued and various ignition sources prevailed . (Ref: ATSB report)
More than a few people here (including yourself) seem to think this is completely irrelevant and acceptable.
I don't really get why people are bagging him. His motivation was no doubt to get everybody off with the least injuries sustained. He made decisions to achieve this to the best of his ability.
If you would have made different decisions that's fine and probably worth discussing, but we know the outcome of his decisions, the only thing that we can be sure of about the outcome of your decisions is that there wouldn't have been less injuries. The outcome would have been equal or worse.
If you would have made different decisions that's fine and probably worth discussing, but we know the outcome of his decisions, the only thing that we can be sure of about the outcome of your decisions is that there wouldn't have been less injuries. The outcome would have been equal or worse.
The land ASAP is attached to some ECAMs. In this case, since there was no fire warning, I would guess it would have been linked to the fuel leak ECAM. It refers only to the ECAM to which it is linked. It does not take into account multiple failures. After takeoff, with the feed tanks fullish of fuel the fuel leak may not have been considered as concerning as the stopping problem of being in the highish 400t low 500t weight range, having over half the anti-skid inop, having no slats.
The LPC at that time had a problem doing landing calcs with some combinations of these failures. Hence the best guess result was a number only 100m less than the LDA. There is no page 4.03 in the QRH to help with these calcs. The only way of reducing the landing distance required in this case was to reduce landing weight.
Remember also Vapp was increased due to the no slats. This speed did not consider any lateral imbalance due to fuel leak.
Airbus might suggest landing within 60min of a red LAND ASAP, however it also has 180/240 ETOPS on its twins, I don't think they would expect you to ditch after an hour, but would rather prefer you did some pilot sh@t and risk manage. As I said the land ASAP is triggered by certain ECAMs by the Flight Warning Computers. It is no smarter than that.
The LPC at that time had a problem doing landing calcs with some combinations of these failures. Hence the best guess result was a number only 100m less than the LDA. There is no page 4.03 in the QRH to help with these calcs. The only way of reducing the landing distance required in this case was to reduce landing weight.
Remember also Vapp was increased due to the no slats. This speed did not consider any lateral imbalance due to fuel leak.
Airbus might suggest landing within 60min of a red LAND ASAP, however it also has 180/240 ETOPS on its twins, I don't think they would expect you to ditch after an hour, but would rather prefer you did some pilot sh@t and risk manage. As I said the land ASAP is triggered by certain ECAMs by the Flight Warning Computers. It is no smarter than that.
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This what the manufacturer recommends:
LAND ASAP RED
Land as soon as possible at the nearest suitable airport at which a safe approach and landing can be made.
· Fire
· Dense Smoke
· All Engine Flameout
· Emergency Electrical Configuration
· Degraded Aircraft Handling Characteristics
LAND ASAP AMBER
Advice to the flight crew to consider landing at the nearest suitable airport.
· Where the aircraft can land safely
· Possibility to consider other criteria
o Approach navaids and lighting available
o Rescue and Fire Fighting Service availability
o Pilot’s familiarity with the airport
o Information about the airport provided to the pilot by the operator
LAND ASAP RED
Land as soon as possible at the nearest suitable airport at which a safe approach and landing can be made.
· Fire
· Dense Smoke
· All Engine Flameout
· Emergency Electrical Configuration
· Degraded Aircraft Handling Characteristics
LAND ASAP AMBER
Advice to the flight crew to consider landing at the nearest suitable airport.
· Where the aircraft can land safely
· Possibility to consider other criteria
o Approach navaids and lighting available
o Rescue and Fire Fighting Service availability
o Pilot’s familiarity with the airport
o Information about the airport provided to the pilot by the operator
I think it's fair to say that, given the multiple systems failures and uncertainty about what was or wasn't available, the idea of how quickly they were 'supposed' to land based on recommended procedures was irrelevant.
Clearly there were many reasons to get on the ground fast, but also things to sort out first. I imagine it would have been readily apparent to all that the situation was urgent!
Clearly there were many reasons to get on the ground fast, but also things to sort out first. I imagine it would have been readily apparent to all that the situation was urgent!
The people who wrote the definition of the red LAND ASAP. Had never considered this exact scenario though. If he had quoted word for word the definition of red LAND ASAP aloud to his crew and then over run by 100m because the ramifications of no leading edge devices and degraded brakes had not been understood, folks would no doubt be saying he should have displayed a bit of airmanship and fully understood the situation prior to rushing in. So you see, he was going to stuff it up in the eyes of some folk no matter what he did.
Good on you RDC for the decades of disciplined career development that enabled you to achieve a great result.
Good on you RDC for the decades of disciplined career development that enabled you to achieve a great result.
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LAND ASAP !!!
To all the people banging on about the "LAND ASAP" ECAM message - a question for you:
If the ECAM said "MOON PAX NOW" would you immediately open the cockpit door, turn round, drop your strides, and bend over ?
If the answer is "Yes" then please post your name and airline on this thread and I'll make sure *never* to fly with you. I know the chances of that happening are much less than an uncontained turbine failure, but nevertheless I don't like taking needless risks.
If the ECAM said "MOON PAX NOW" would you immediately open the cockpit door, turn round, drop your strides, and bend over ?
If the answer is "Yes" then please post your name and airline on this thread and I'll make sure *never* to fly with you. I know the chances of that happening are much less than an uncontained turbine failure, but nevertheless I don't like taking needless risks.
Bottums Up
The 717 QRH does not use the term As Soon As Possible with regard to landing for any abnormal or emergency.
As best I can recall the DH8 QRH used As Soon As Practicable.
Is it possible that the Airbus ECAM message ASAP is Practicable rather than possible?
As best I can recall the DH8 QRH used As Soon As Practicable.
Is it possible that the Airbus ECAM message ASAP is Practicable rather than possible?
Last edited by Capt Claret; 4th Aug 2012 at 13:23. Reason: Typo
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It does not say land right away ignoring all other considerations.
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Ned et al
This was intended to be an intelligent discussion of "how would you handle this event"? Nowhere during this discussion have I derided Capt RdC, in fact I praised him in the early posts.
It appears that most here believe (including the QF32) that the greatest threat was a landing overrun.
Using my brain
and the ATSB report, I would contend that the greatest threat was the severe fuel leak (red LAND ASAP) following the engine explosion and the multiple ignition sources, which remained for 4 hours.
From the ATSB report, all checks were complete after 50mins and the available systems and runway condition known (gear down, F3, 3 engs, rev#3, antiskid, max braking, nws, 4000m dry rwy, etc)
I have never suggested landing without preparation. For this event I would suggest that the long stable approach could have been commenced just after the 50min mark, which fits with the 60min ballpark for red LAND ASAP.
Remember, it is just a discussion based on the facts in the ATSB report, no need to get Neanderthal.
This was intended to be an intelligent discussion of "how would you handle this event"? Nowhere during this discussion have I derided Capt RdC, in fact I praised him in the early posts.
It appears that most here believe (including the QF32) that the greatest threat was a landing overrun.
Using my brain
and the ATSB report, I would contend that the greatest threat was the severe fuel leak (red LAND ASAP) following the engine explosion and the multiple ignition sources, which remained for 4 hours.From the ATSB report, all checks were complete after 50mins and the available systems and runway condition known (gear down, F3, 3 engs, rev#3, antiskid, max braking, nws, 4000m dry rwy, etc)
I have never suggested landing without preparation. For this event I would suggest that the long stable approach could have been commenced just after the 50min mark, which fits with the 60min ballpark for red LAND ASAP.
Remember, it is just a discussion based on the facts in the ATSB report, no need to get Neanderthal.
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Ok Mate
First of all your info is duff.
It took around 50 minutes to get to STATUS! After that there is all the other **** you have to do, Limitations 2 Pages, Review Deferred Procedures, Inop System Redundancy 3 Pages and 2 More pages of Alerts affecting landing performance.
and the calculation required. CRM discussion about the general situation, control checks, it had 2 of 3 ailerons inop on the left wing and half the spoilers! you sort of want to make sure it's flyable before you come charging in! set up for the approach, get vectored for the approach run the deferred procedures, gravity gear extension (that alone takes two minutes!)and land! all up it took about an hour due to the large volume of ****. So it's not like they were just hanging around chewing the fat!
My recommendations if you are truly interested is 1 Read RDC's book for an overview, 2 wait for the ATSB Final report and read that, I imagine it will be a book in its self. 3 when you have a handle on the facts, start another thread titled Lessons from QF32.
I can't really see any point in continuing a critique of the event. so I give up.
The Book however and RDC's radio stuff (hence the name of the thread) go for it.
First of all your info is duff.
It took around 50 minutes to get to STATUS! After that there is all the other **** you have to do, Limitations 2 Pages, Review Deferred Procedures, Inop System Redundancy 3 Pages and 2 More pages of Alerts affecting landing performance.
and the calculation required. CRM discussion about the general situation, control checks, it had 2 of 3 ailerons inop on the left wing and half the spoilers! you sort of want to make sure it's flyable before you come charging in! set up for the approach, get vectored for the approach run the deferred procedures, gravity gear extension (that alone takes two minutes!)and land! all up it took about an hour due to the large volume of ****. So it's not like they were just hanging around chewing the fat!
My recommendations if you are truly interested is 1 Read RDC's book for an overview, 2 wait for the ATSB Final report and read that, I imagine it will be a book in its self. 3 when you have a handle on the facts, start another thread titled Lessons from QF32.
I can't really see any point in continuing a critique of the event. so I give up.
The Book however and RDC's radio stuff (hence the name of the thread) go for it.
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Speaking of books...
Straight after finishing RdC's story about QF32, I downloaded Fighter Pilot - Misadventures beyond the sound barrier with a real Topgun by Mac 'Serge' Tucker on the weekend.
Awkward title, but what a great read! A no punches pulled story about his (too short) career as an RAAF Hornet driver, with some great warries and poignant moments thrown in for good measure. As Molly would say, do yourself a favour...
Nice one Serge!
Awkward title, but what a great read! A no punches pulled story about his (too short) career as an RAAF Hornet driver, with some great warries and poignant moments thrown in for good measure. As Molly would say, do yourself a favour...
Nice one Serge!
Last edited by FoxtrotAlpha18; 6th Aug 2012 at 00:06.
