CX A340, YPPD.
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"It doesn't matter what sort of airport infrastructure you have when visibility is down to 300 metres nothing happens,'' Mr Geatches said.
"It doesn't matter how poor the infrastructure is, our customers can't go elsewhere, so upgrading it makes no sense."
Remember PH is a privately owned monopoly, everything that happens flows logically from that.
Or better still divert to your Alternate
TAF YPPH 101008Z 1012/1118 14010KT 9999 -SHRA FEW015
BKN035 FM101500 16010KT CAVOK
INTER 1012/1015 4000 SHRA BKN010
No fog forecast and no requirement for an alternate for arrivals into Perth early this morning. CX would have departed Hong Kong under 'Island Reserve' rules, ie two hours holding fuel at destination. The nearest alternates we can plan for Perth are Adelaide or Bali, requiring at least another 12 tonnes of fuel. That reduces the available payload somewhat, and isn't normally planned unless the forecast requires it.
TAF YPPH 101008Z 1012/1118 14010KT 9999 -SHRA FEW015
BKN035 FM101500 16010KT CAVOK
INTER 1012/1015 4000 SHRA BKN010
BKN035 FM101500 16010KT CAVOK
INTER 1012/1015 4000 SHRA BKN010
History | Weather Underground
And some wonder why we get paranoid about the weather in the wild west...
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 11th Jul 2012 at 08:47.
And who will pay for the CatIII ILS systems and maintenance? It would be lovely to have it for those few flights per year affected by fog in Perth but I'm sure Perth Airport are happy to accept the cost of weather diversions are borne by the airlines at the moment. I can't see things changing soon, unless an augmented GPS RNP-AR approach is introduced.
CX137 finally departed PD at 1225 local- they sat on the ground for nearly 5.5 hrs (from 0705). Bet the passengers enjoyed being stuck on the plane for that one!
Far cry from the 1hr 15mins they reckoned to refuel too (which is where the crew change requirement came into play I suppose).
They sounded quite stressed on Ctr.
Suppose if it wasn't for the same fog delaying the domestic jets to Hedland (amongst all other places), it would have been a bit more awkward on the ground down there.
But, at least it all worked out safely in the end.
Far cry from the 1hr 15mins they reckoned to refuel too (which is where the crew change requirement came into play I suppose).
They sounded quite stressed on Ctr.
Suppose if it wasn't for the same fog delaying the domestic jets to Hedland (amongst all other places), it would have been a bit more awkward on the ground down there.
But, at least it all worked out safely in the end.
Any delay refueling in PHE would have ran the crew out of hours as they operated overnight from HKG.
Any arrival after 08:15 local would have meant the crew extending using discretion. As they only landed PIE at 07:15 they were pushing s*** uphill to get the job done back to PER.
Any arrival after 08:15 local would have meant the crew extending using discretion. As they only landed PIE at 07:15 they were pushing s*** uphill to get the job done back to PER.
Last edited by nitpicker330; 11th Jul 2012 at 10:21.
Aussie aviation is like the band Skyhooks.......living in the 70's! (great music though:-)
As ugly as this sounds the only way Australia will come into the 21st century as far as our Aviation goes is to have a major crash of a heavy metal plane due mainly poor infrastructure at Aussie dromes before any of the pollies get off their shiny polished backsides & act forcing the Drome owners to make it safer!!
But like all things in this backward country the 'gate' is left swinging in the breeze!!
Wmk2
As ugly as this sounds the only way Australia will come into the 21st century as far as our Aviation goes is to have a major crash of a heavy metal plane due mainly poor infrastructure at Aussie dromes before any of the pollies get off their shiny polished backsides & act forcing the Drome owners to make it safer!!
But like all things in this backward country the 'gate' is left swinging in the breeze!!
Wmk2
TAF YPPH 101008Z 1012/1118 14010KT 9999 -SHRA FEW015
BKN035 FM101500 16010KT CAVOK
INTER 1012/1015 4000 SHRA BKN010
And some wonder why get paranoid about the weather in the wild west...
BKN035 FM101500 16010KT CAVOK
INTER 1012/1015 4000 SHRA BKN010
And some wonder why get paranoid about the weather in the wild west...
Saw a METAR around the time that TAF was issued, with a temp dew point split of 12/11 and the Vis already down to 6000m but still nothing on the TAF suggesting fog.
EK 777 No DH and 75 RVR. Last time I used it in anger was at Delhi-the 3rd world!!!!!!!! Agreed, PH should have IIIb due to lack of divert options. Guess it would make less money than a carpark though
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YMML VOR 34 OK but Foggy YPPH needs Airline pressure.
No problem with a VOR or GPS/RNAV to YMML34, Northerly winds requiring RWY 34 will have relatively good visibility. When Foggy = light winds so only one RWY needing ILS CAT 3B.
But YPPH has these odd times when a CAT 3B ILS is needed. Where can a B747 or A380 go if LM is Fogged in too! YPPD and YPEK RWYs yes but exits and parking become a serious issue. An A380 will end up parked at the end of a RWY with very HOT brakes.
Many years ago a QF flight got caught in the same unforecast fog conditions. New Captain was preparing to ditch until a more experienced D/H Capt suggested this an ILS AutoLand App and descent to land on a RWY, albeit below minima, was a wiser decision making choice.
But YPPH has these odd times when a CAT 3B ILS is needed. Where can a B747 or A380 go if LM is Fogged in too! YPPD and YPEK RWYs yes but exits and parking become a serious issue. An A380 will end up parked at the end of a RWY with very HOT brakes.
Many years ago a QF flight got caught in the same unforecast fog conditions. New Captain was preparing to ditch until a more experienced D/H Capt suggested this an ILS AutoLand App and descent to land on a RWY, albeit below minima, was a wiser decision making choice.
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Like everything else in this country......... Return on investment!
Then again, what is the lesser evil, money grabbing privately owned infrastructure or facilities run by the flunkies better known as government?
Time for a coup!
Bbbbbbzbzbzbsbzbzbsbzb
Then again, what is the lesser evil, money grabbing privately owned infrastructure or facilities run by the flunkies better known as government?
Time for a coup!
Bbbbbbzbzbzbsbzbzbsbzb
I'm sure Perth Airport are happy to accept the cost of weather diversions are borne by the airlines at the moment
I agree, the infrastructure available to pilots (and controllers) at most Australian airports is a farce. Non-precision approaches at international airports in this day and age? Give me a break.
Airports such as SIN, BKK and HKG (to name a few) have ILS approaches to all runways, surface movement radar and low vis ops. The facilities at Perth are particularly tragic given its isolation and lack of alternates for large aircraft. As others have commented, some airports in so-called third world countries have better facilities than airports in Australia.
Then again, if you want the latest Prada handbag, just head for the nearest international terminal.
Airports such as SIN, BKK and HKG (to name a few) have ILS approaches to all runways, surface movement radar and low vis ops. The facilities at Perth are particularly tragic given its isolation and lack of alternates for large aircraft. As others have commented, some airports in so-called third world countries have better facilities than airports in Australia.
Then again, if you want the latest Prada handbag, just head for the nearest international terminal.
Last edited by BuzzBox; 12th Jul 2012 at 02:44.
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Many years ago a QF flight got caught in the same unforecast fog conditions. New Captain was preparing to ditch until a more experienced D/H Capt suggested this an ILS AutoLand App and descent to land on a RWY, albeit below minima, was a wiser decision making choice.
Of course some airlines seem to ignore the fact that the visibility is below landing minima at Perth and land anyway. Which prompted a rather cryptic notam being published last year reminding everyone that Perth does not have low vis ILS procedures.
...some airlines seem to ignore the fact that the visibility is below landing minima at Perth and land anyway.
Airlines 'must want' fog upgrade
Kate Emery and Michelle Wheeler, The West Australian
July 12, 2012, 6:24 am
Kate Emery and Michelle Wheeler, The West Australian
July 12, 2012, 6:24 am
Perth Airport says it will go ahead with an upgrade that would allow planes to operate in reduced visibility and potentially avoid chaos caused by fog only if airlines push for it.
Fog delayed outgoing flights yesterday and caused some incoming flights to be diverted to Brisbane, Alice Springs, Adelaide, Kalgoorlie and Port Hedland.
Up to 60 domestic and international flights were affected. It was the third time in as many months fog delays have hit the airport.
Perth Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said an upgrade to the kind of infrastructure used at many airports in Europe and the US would cost up to $20 million but would only help in landings, not departures. "If airlines would like Perth Airport to be upgraded . . . Perth Airport will proceed with the upgrade," he said. "To date, airlines have indicated that an upgrade is not necessary, given Perth Airport is affected by fog infrequently."
However, a Qantas spokesman said the airline was "still in discussions" with the airport about infrastructure upgrades to enable landings in low visibility.
Dianne McLernon was waiting at the international airport to pick up her son, who had been due in on a flight from Hong Kong that was diverted to Port Hedland. "He's not well, so he's really looking forward to getting home," she said.
The Weather Bureau said the fog was caused by moist conditions, light winds and clear skies.
Fog delayed outgoing flights yesterday and caused some incoming flights to be diverted to Brisbane, Alice Springs, Adelaide, Kalgoorlie and Port Hedland.
Up to 60 domestic and international flights were affected. It was the third time in as many months fog delays have hit the airport.
Perth Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said an upgrade to the kind of infrastructure used at many airports in Europe and the US would cost up to $20 million but would only help in landings, not departures. "If airlines would like Perth Airport to be upgraded . . . Perth Airport will proceed with the upgrade," he said. "To date, airlines have indicated that an upgrade is not necessary, given Perth Airport is affected by fog infrequently."
However, a Qantas spokesman said the airline was "still in discussions" with the airport about infrastructure upgrades to enable landings in low visibility.
Dianne McLernon was waiting at the international airport to pick up her son, who had been due in on a flight from Hong Kong that was diverted to Port Hedland. "He's not well, so he's really looking forward to getting home," she said.
The Weather Bureau said the fog was caused by moist conditions, light winds and clear skies.