Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Gold Coast needs an ILS

Old 10th Feb 2014, 05:13
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Don't forget Albany...
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Old 10th Feb 2014, 09:50
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Might have to give Jepessen a call tomorrow, I seem to be missing my ILS charts for Mildura and Proserpine.
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Old 10th Feb 2014, 10:10
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Well you won't find them in the Yellow Pages or online if you spell it like that!
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Old 13th Feb 2014, 10:10
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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As a person close on this project. I'm still not completely convinced it's going to happen.

As the link above says....2 flights all summer have diverted to Brisbane....I'll repeat the number again. ..2. Do you really think the minister is going to give his backing to something that costs so much, yet provides so little?

Consider that public criteria rnp will be available at Gold Coast before the ils is operational. And the emo minima is only about 100-150ft higher than an ils. If those 2 diversions would have arrived off an rnp....well....what's the point.


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Old 13th Feb 2014, 10:12
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.....and if there really is no point. Then you are just stirring up and pissing off the locals for no reason.


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Old 13th Feb 2014, 11:15
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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The tailored (private) RNP at Gold Coast has worked fine for years..

Min is higher due to obstacles in the missed...and WAY too much emphasis has been placed on 250 vs 350 HAT of ILS vs RNP.

EDIT: Looking at the public RNP, and the other procedures, I think perhap reviewing the obstacles in the flightpath to get the min down would be much more cost effective.

Last edited by underfire; 13th Feb 2014 at 20:25.
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Old 13th Feb 2014, 11:21
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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OOL doesn't really need an ILS...just cOOL and sound approach procedures using GPS/RNP or well constructed VOR approaches.

Many airlines have been flying to Kathmandu using the VOR 02 approach in a more challenging environment lately with nary a problem. I have flown there a couple of times a year and most operators going in there have done so safely and efficiently. Good preparation and focussed flying needed though.

Godspeed and fly safe.
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Old 13th Feb 2014, 19:15
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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2 flights all summer have diverted to Brisbane....I'll repeat the number again. ..2.


The financial cost and safety costs to the Airlines and ultimately the travelling public of not having a precision approach aid warrants the installation of an ILS.

Along with your two repeat two flights ;

How many flights have carried significantly more fuel than they should have to out last significant weather conditions?
How many flights have carried out more than one non precision approach to become visual some at night with the tower closed.
How many flights have been cancelled due to the weather forecast/actual conditions not being suitable for a non precision approach.
How many flights have had to use Brisbane alternates further up or down the coast because OOL lacks a precision approach aid?

Someone 'close on the project' should talk to some pilots, some flight planning officers and some Airline executives to see if those "two repeat two" diversions stack up against the safe, efficient, and financially viable expectations that we all have for OOL.

Last edited by ad-astra; 13th Feb 2014 at 19:37.
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Old 14th Feb 2014, 00:48
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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So what is the financial and safety cost?

There is no safety cost. There may be a safety benefit. But when the aircraft are getting vertical guidance via RNP, what is the extra safety benefit that an ILS will deliver? There is also an implication that the current procedures are unsafe, I do not agree with this. They may be less efficient.

Financial, I can't argue with that. But you would have to answer the questions below to compare apples with apples.

How many flights have carried significantly more fuel than they should have to out last significant weather conditions?
How many flights have carried out more than one non precision approach to become visual some at night with the tower closed.
How many flights have been cancelled due to the weather forecast/actual conditions not being suitable for a non precision approach.
How many flights have had to use Brisbane alternates further up or down the coast because OOL lacks a precision approach aid?
Can you answer these questions?

Someone 'close on the project' should talk to some pilots, some flight planning officers and some Airline executives to see if those "two repeat two" diversions stack up against the safe, efficient, and financially viable expectations that we all have for OOL.
Why do you assume I haven't? Ad-astra I like the idea of an ILS. So do you it appears. You clearly seem to think that an ILS is essential for Safety and Efficiency at Gold Coast and on face value you are probably right. Currently, the airlines don't support that view. They would rather we develop RNP.
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Old 14th Feb 2014, 02:25
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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With the ILS, what would the minima be?

How much less than the current RNP? probably not much with that obstacle rich environment.

The ILS is not going to help very much with the typical ceiling out there.

An RNP turn to 3nm short final would work wonders. (RNP turn in the missed as well)
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Old 14th Feb 2014, 03:48
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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We've been through the RNP thing before on this thread. Too bloody hard unless you've got deep pockets (I wonder how much all the RNPs around Aus have cost QF?). Spread the love, put in a simple, safe ILS that everybody can use.
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Old 14th Feb 2014, 04:03
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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The icao rnp coming later this year aren't being designed for or funded by anyone specific. They certainly aren't going to cost 3 mil, and they aren't going to annoy 70000 homes that currently dont have a flightpath overhead.

Win, win situation.


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Old 14th Feb 2014, 04:04
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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As the link above says....2 flights all summer have diverted to Brisbane....I'll repeat the number again. ..2. Do you really think the minister is going to give his backing to something that costs so much, yet provides so little
Are you serious?? If that's the thinking in government no wonder the airport is a basket case.

The summer previous they were having days where only a handful of flights landed. BNE was having 60 min traffic holding plus tempos! So we now have to wait for the next spell of wet weather and scheduled chaos, then we can repeat all this line of inquiry all over again?

Love to know what Scoot and Air Asia think of this. Don't think they were too impressed in flying to BNE then chartering buses to OOL.

Bizarre line of thinking for a tourist town.

The ILS is not going to help very much with the typical ceiling out there.
A runway aligned ILS with HIALS will solve everything. Cloud base is not the problem it is heavy rain and the current distance from the threshold you have to start the MAP.

The RNP works but is a extra burden and limits the airport's availability.

Last edited by neville_nobody; 14th Feb 2014 at 04:17.
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Old 14th Feb 2014, 04:31
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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They certainly aren't going to cost 3 mil
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the total cost to operators will be in excess of that in terms of aircraft capability management and crew training and currency. RNP-ARs are not a GPS NPA, operational approvals-wise.
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Old 14th Feb 2014, 05:35
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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The current rules allow for one turn to final under APCH...so it doesnt have to be the AR cost to the airline.
Or, pretty simple, put in the 'T', let the ac make the turn. No harm , no foul

ICAO missed kills ya though
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Old 14th Feb 2014, 06:32
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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The current rules allow for one turn to final under APCH...so it doesnt have to be the AR cost to the airline.
Or, pretty simple, put in the 'T', let the ac make the turn. No harm , no foul
However I don't think you can do that at 3-4 miles from the threshold at a few hundred feet which is what is required here.
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Old 14th Feb 2014, 06:43
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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The current rules allow for one turn to final under APCH
But the minima would be nowhere near an -AR or ILS, would it?
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Old 14th Feb 2014, 21:12
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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You would have to look at the approach/missed to see where the obstacles are. Public RNP AR/APCH is 0.3 RNP. RNP 0.1 do pretty well, but that is more expensive for the airline.

Couple of key factors for the turn location:
1. FROP at 500 feet
2. 30 seconds of stabilized flight before minima
3. Min 250 HAT for minima.

Theoretically, you can have a 2nm short final. (Ask WJ in Canada!) That close in, with FAS, the turns can be pretty tight, 2nm radius for 737. Perhaps only a quarter delta turn could get you in there nicely. That may get you around that tower(s) on final to RW14, not sure about RW34.

With the public RNP, you could have a 15 degree angle point at 2 miles. Up to 15 degrees is not considered a turn. I see they have a 12 degree angle, so its a tight one. That may also get you past those towers. or, move the towers!

I beleive the cost for an ILS is about $2Million per runway end.
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Old 14th Feb 2014, 21:42
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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If the locals dont want an airport, why not just close it, flog the vacant real estate to the chinese, hell they would probably buy the lot when property prices collapse and unemployment goes through the roof.
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