A question to QF pilots

[AirborneSoon]

I have nothing to say about QFs plans for Asia, but I do have a question.

What makes QFs pilots uniquely entitled to job security in an economy where no other worker has that? Now before you go on about saving lives and your $100k investment in self education let me enlighten you about working conditions or non-aviation Australia.

As an Australian worker you have the right to pay for your own education. I paid for mine out of my own pocket and it cost me well over $60k. It was also education essential to attaining my job. My employer paid for absolutely none of that. In return to my $60k self-funded investment I [eventually] achieved a lordly wage of $70k a year.

As an Australian worker you have the right to spend years in low paying sucky jobs at the bottom of your industry before getting a decent wage. I spent 4yrs in a $36k a year job just to get my foot in the door of my industry after spending thousands on my own education because I needed experience. Buying experience is something every Australian worker has to do in the course of their career.

As an Australian worker you don't get travel in J class. Corporate Australia doesn't pay for that anymore unless you work in higher level mgt. We've all been told it's an extravagance that the company just can't afford. You get to travel for your job in the cheapest seat your company can source on the schedule you need to fly. You can be expected to travel 10hrs overnight in a cramped economy seat and attend work the next day, some 8hrs later. That's just the way it is.

As an Australian worker you can lose your job at any time through redundancy and your company doesnt have to prove to the public or the government a good reason for offshoring your work. They can just decide to do it and you are out the door with the minimum legal requirements for redundancy. If your company is really nice they might hook you up with a recruitment agent who will then help you find another job. Otherwise it's goodnight nurse. I lost the job I had trained for, worked in and paid to be in virtually overnight when the industry boom was over and outsourcing to the 3rd world became the next great mgt idea.

As an Australian worker on a salary, you are required and expected to work daily overtime, weekends and whatever else the company might need without being paid anything extra for it. You're expected to do this because you value your job and if you don't they are quite willing to give your job to someone who will. There are no seniority lists for promotion, it goes to the person willing to do the most for the least cost. You also don't have minimum rest periods, maximum duty hours or buffers around your day off.

As an Australian worker you are free to choose your employer and seek the best working conditions your skills, experience and talents will afford. You you wil also find many workers doing identical work, with identical skills and experience, in the same company on vastly different rates of pay. Companies pay each worker the lowest rate they can to secure their services, this often means coworkers can have as much as $10k difference in pay rates based on nothing more than a persons willingness to accept $10k less. You cant go to your employer and say company B is paying more so they need to pay more. Our boss will just tell you, if you dont like it you can leave. Your employer can without notice change your working terms and conditions to suit market conditions. When times are tough your employer will work you harder because they know you will not easily find another position. When times are good they tend to be more lenient and it's a good time to go back to market and get
another job with more favorable pay. Thats just how it's done in the Australian market today.

It seems to me all the things pilots are taking action against are just par for
the course for most Australians. This is probably why the Australian worker has a hard time finding sympathy and support for pilots and their job guarantees. You are asking for a working condition no-one else in this country enjoys. Why shouldn't pilots be subject to the same market forces and struggles that everyone else is?

You go on about EK and SQ paying their pilots more with better travel entitlements but that's no different to anyone else saying....geez if I could just get a job with Company X, I'd get paid more with more opportunities and have better benefits. If you want that you have to go and work for the companies that offer that. You can't expect your present company to offer it just because it exists somewhere else.

I could go and make much more than I do right now working in the mines. But I'd have to work in a hole in the ground to get it. I don't want to do that so I settle for the lower pay of where I am. Thats my choice and freedom as an Australian worker.

[Tuner 2]

Your entire post demonstrates you do not actually understand the QF long haul pilots' "job security" claim you criticise, which is not even titled "job security", and that you have little idea about how industrial agreement negotiations work. Nor do you understand the relevant provisions of the Fair Work Act, substantive sections of which practically mirror the WorkChoices legislation and previous Workplace Relations Act.

[AirborneSoon]

You are probably correct. But what I do understand are the working conditions for the vast majority of Australians which afford us no bargaining power beyond the market demand for our individual services in any given moment. And possibly why public support for your claims appears to be dwindling. So please tell me why I should support the cause of pilots in this country? After all Fair Work and Work Choices affects non-pilots too.

[LT Selfridge]

Another willing recruit sleep-walking into slavery. You go on being a cog in the machine and be thankful for people like the Qantas guys who are propping up your conditions by not being smashed by the 1%. Make no mistake - the CEO club wants compliant, 'who am I to argue', 'I guess I'm happy getting the crumbs from the big boy's table', serfs like you. Why do you think you get the money you do? Don't say market forces - the 'market' is fixed.

Also if you think Qantas is made up wholly of one trick pony guys who can't do anything other than operate aircraft then think again. Sure, some will be like you - struggled every inch of the way to get were they are but essentially out of ideas on how to be anything other than a slave. But a significant number will be assessing the angles, bringing out their plan B - the law degrees, the business plan, the MBAs, the corporate jet positions, the military skill-set they may have, while at the same time squeezing as much out of the acceptable conditions they currently enjoy before they move on to another situation where they can retain control of their lives.

Just say thanks and hope they don't fancy your job.

[Tuner 2]

Your oversimplified, free market views on the labour market are entirely up to you to subscribe to. However many people do not.

The notion of "if you don't like it, leave" is extremely naive and denies those who have a personal and financial stake in their job a right to negotiate around their employment conditions. This includes the 100% legal right, under current and previous legislation, to take protected indutrial action to advance their claims.

Just because a large proportion of the community is not industrially organised does not mean those who are should be denied these rights.

"And possibly why public support for your claims appears to be dwindling"
Please provide me with scientific evidnce of this. Please note that online comments on news media websites are not a scientific form of polling.

[DutchRoll]

What makes QFs pilots uniquely entitled to job security in an economy where no other worker has that?

You don't really understand the particular pilot claim, do you? Fair enough. Qantas wants it to stay that way.

I paid for mine out of my own pocket and it cost me well over $60k.

You don't know how much it costs to attain your Airline Transport Pilot's Licence do you? Qantas do not pay for that.

As an Australian worker you have the right to spend years in low paying sucky jobs at the bottom of your industry before getting a decent wage.

Many Qantas pilots have done exactly that. Spent several years (at least) getting paid wages which are barely enough to buy food and pay rent, while flying rustbucket poorly maintained aeroplanes out of Oonawoopwoop with the Civil Aviation Regulations "bent" into the preferred shape by the employers. Just to get the hours necessary to even qualify to apply.

You can be expected to travel 10hrs overnight in a cramped economy seat and attend work the next day, some 8hrs later. That's just the way it is.

No probs. If you want me to fly a $100 million 400 tonne aeroplane at 1000 km/h at 38,000 ft with no place to pull over, having had no sleep, with the known and measured (in flight simulator studies) physical and mental performance decrements that brings, no worries. We'll do that. Fingers crossed the engine doesn't explode to coincide with all that. Feeling lucky?

As an Australian worker you can lose your job at any time through redundancy

That's pretty much how it works at Qantas. The only reasons pilots haven't been made redundant is through mutual agreements with Qantas where they take all their accrued leave and long service leave. We've even previously taken pay freezes to avoid this, again, through mutual agreement and negotiation.

As an Australian worker on a salary

Qantas pilots are not on a salary. They are on an hourly wage. The income varies from week to week, month to month, and year to year with hours worked. Just like anyone else on an hourly wage.

You also don't have minimum rest periods, maximum duty hours or buffers around your day off.

No worries again. You want me to take you flying having been awake for 24 hours? I can't do that in a large heavy jet, but I might be able to arrange it in a private plane, providing you sign a waiver first. Can I take your family too?

As an Australian worker you are free to choose your employer and seek the best working conditions your skills, experience and talents will afford.

So too are Qantas pilots. And indeed they are doing exactly that.

You are asking for a working condition no-one else in this country enjoys.

And which one is that?

[Oriana]

But what I do understand are the working conditions for the vast majority of Australians which afford us no bargaining power beyond the market demand for our individual services in any given moment.

That's because so many regular people buy into the Capitalist mantra that unionism is evil, and individualism is the better option all the while pouring scorn on an organised workforce - whilst they themselves enjoy conditions that were hard fought and won by unionised workers.

Since when did **** kicking workers become capitalists?

[AirborneSoon]

Just as I thought. No-one willing to articulate their claims in a way that's convincing or understandable but plenty of people willing to belittle and be nasty. With the exception of DutchRoll whose comments actually came close to an answer.

In my world view - we take industrial action because it's our right - doesn't provide me with any information on why your claims are valid. And of course I got made redundant because I'm talentless and a fool. Nice.

Well enjoy your right to industrial action and your fight ahead of you. I don't have a scientific poll on how much community support you have, but there are several hundred posts on here made by pilots talking about how QF keeps trumping you in the PR stakes and not many about how you're winning your war. If you want massive public support then perhaps not attacking anyone who asks you about your cause would be a way to go...

I'd wish you good luck but thanks to Selfridges post I no longer feel any moral obligation to care.

[muffman]

I'll start by saying I'm not a Qantas pilot, but I do have a couple of things for you to consider.

1. The job security claim has nothing to do with J class travel or absurdly high incomes. It is simply a case of a unionised workforce using their (tentative) bargaining position to ask the company for some commitment to keeping their jobs available. Any other Australian worker could ask for the same thing. Whether they get it depends on how strong their bargaining position is - the same applies here. What is wrong with the pilots asking for it?
2. The consequences of the company not agreeing to this are more serious than the lack of ongoing job security for Qantas LH pilots. Qantas has a reputation for safety and excellence despite being the longest continuously operated airline in the world, operating along some of the longest routes in the world. By refusing to invest in the future of their current workforce on any level (remember, the pilots have never ruled out a pay cut to keep their jobs), Qantas are saying they do not value the investment they have made in the training and experience of their current staff'. Any moves to replace their staff will inevitably be a lowering of standards. Furthermore, the economic significance of sending Australian jobs offshore affects everyone, not just those left unemployed by the decision. Australians should not be supporting this.
3. Australia does not need to be in a race to the bottom on every front. Why is the media comparing pilot salaries with the minimum wage? Why are you suggesting pilots should show up for work with no rest after flying all night in an economy class seat? The possible outcome here is not a financial disadvantage, it is the death of innocent, fare paying passengers who expect that whoever is up the front is well rested and capable. Look at the Colgan Air accident and many others to see where fatigue leads.
4. The J class seats argument is a moot point because your company would pay the full fare price for a J class seat. When your employer is an airline, it's fair to say they can obtain the seat at no more than the opportunity cost plus the cost of meals, etc. I would suggest that is always going to be less than the cost of an accident.

Just some thoughts.

[Arnold E]

DutchRoll seems to me to have put forward a reasonable argument, please elaborate where you think he may be deficient. Please put forward some questions that you would like more directly answered.

[Fuel-Off]

Whilst NO ONE in this country has guaranteed job security in this country, I have to ask all those neigh-sayers, is it wrong for at least one union in at least trying to get said job security clause? If successful, the legal precedent would be astonishing where those very neigh sayers thanking their lucky stars! I hope they don't have to go through what the QF boys and girls are enduring at the moment however a bit of perspective is needed.

Food for thought...

Fuel-Off

[Angle of Attack]

Companies pay each worker the lowest rate they can to secure their services, this often means coworkers can have as much as $10k difference in pay rates based on nothing more than a persons willingness to accept $10k less

Well thats the Employees tough luck, as they obviously have not joined a union, you can go it alone if you wish but you will get sucky conditions..

So please tell me why I should support the cause of pilots in this country?

You don't have to and no one really cares mate

Its not about Job security it is about Qantas planes Qantas pilots nothing more, now maybe you should go back to your desk boy, come and see me in 10 years when you turn 21!

[Ixixly]

I'm not a Qantas Pilot, i'm just a lowly GA Pilot, heck my ambitions aren't even to go to Qantas, personally I'd much rather fly for someone like the RFDS.

But I think I might be able to answer your question.

"What makes QFs pilots uniquely entitled to job security in an economy where no other worker has that?"

Nothing, is probably the best answer. Nothing makes them Uniquely entitled to "Job Security" as you've put it, even if that was entirely was this stoush is over, and once again, not being a Qantas Employee I won't directly argue on what the whole point is. But the fact that they are fighting for what they want is something that all Employees can do, but have chosen not to.

There is so much talk about how Unions are evil and are causing too many problems. In my mind the Unions are fantastic, i'm a Member of the AFAP, purely because of the peace of mind it gives me. Like the majority of GA Pilots out there, my bosses are continually trying to underpay me, its nothing new. So having a Union to be able to call on and gain advice on what can be done so that i'm getting what i'm entitled to according to the Air Pilots Award empowers me in a way. It means that unlike quite a few other GA Pilots out there who simply put up with it, get their Hours and get out and hope the next mob will be better, I can still get my Hours, get what i'm owed and if they should choose to disadvantage me because I simply ask what they promised me when they said i'll be paid according to the Award, the AFAP can help me deal with that as well!!

In my Mind, if more people were part of Unions this might be less of an issue with Employers who feel they can rip off their Employees as the Employees can stand together as a group and not feel afraid to comeforth with their complaints or problems for fear of being "Dealt with" by Management looking to make a point.

Personally i've found this to be an incredibly big problem in GA, a lot of Pilots accepting sub-standard treatment because of the efforts they went to to get that First job and not wanting to lose it by putting their neck on the line because they feel they'd be doing so alone.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not someone who lives beyond their means, I don't take Money for things I feel I have not earnt, but I damned well want to make sure i'm getting what i'm owed, no more, no less.

I also feel this situation with Qantas has far more ramifications as others have pointed out. What happens if the Unions are smashed down? I get the feeling that a lot of CEOs will take this as a precedent and start doing the same with no fear and this will cause much larger problems. Whats the point of dirt cheap products when the number of un-employed rises dramatically due to outsourcing in a number of industries and no one has any money to spend in the first place?! What happens when all these people who are un-employed start taking the dole and start training the Governments Coffers?

As I said, i'm only a Lowly GA Pilot and still young, but I fear that this is where the world is heading and that it has already caused many problems. Maybe i'm wrong, i'm not too big headed that I couldn't admit it, but for now, with what I know, thats how I feel and is my opinion based on that information.

[Explicitus]

Surgeons not butchers

Personally, when I'm sitting at the back of the aircraft I'm not happy to think that those up front are anyone who has managed to get an ATPL. I want them to be way overqualified. I want even the Second Officers to all have real command experience and have actually been through the wringer a few times and have demonstrably handled the pressure. There are plenty of other pilots who could no doubt operate the aircraft; but I want more.
To do that, the conditions for the pilots have to be good enough to get good, experienced pilots to apply.
My father was a slaughterman, and he was perfectly capable of neatly removing a spleen. I'm sure if asked to do any number of operations he could have managed it. If someone is cutting me open, however, I want it to be the smartest person they could find for the job - not just someone who could manage to do it. Being a surgeon is a very good wicket, and they get very smart people doing it, and I am very happy about that.
There are plenty of people who could manage to do the job. I prefer it to be done by a select group out of the set of people who could do it, and to be sure to get them, they have to be well paid.

[Arnold E]

Ixixly

I can assure you, that you are not wrong, good to see a young person standing up for themselves and there work mates. Well done that man.

[LT Selfridge]

AS,

Let me spell something out. The boss wants a slave (but without room and board). The employee wants what the boss gets. Somewhere in the middle is a situation which satisfies neither party but can be lived with by both.

In a globalised economy there are two ways for an employee to secure their situation. The first is by being an agent for the boss in the undercutting of his workmates. The second is by teaming up with his fellow workers to push for the industrial sweet spot described in the first paragraph.

[QUOTE]And of course I got made redundant because I'm talentless and a fool./QUOTE]

[QUOTE]I'd wish you good luck but thanks to Selfridges post I no longer feel any moral obligation to care./QUOTE]

For Buddah's sake pull yourself together man.

A few more Ixixlys in the world please.

[Keg]

If you want massive public support then perhaps not attacking anyone who asks you about your cause would be a way to go...

The problem is that rather than ask the question, you start from some very flawed premises that show how little you understand aviation, what it involves to get into an airline, what it takes to stay in an airline, and what the pilots are asking for. Rather than simply ask why do pilots get J class travel, you start from your flawed default position that it's inappropriate for them to get it. Rather than ask why pilots stay in nice hotels or have mandatory rest periods you start from your flawed default position that 'I have to fly all night and work all day the next day, why shouldn't pilots'.

So let's stop kidding ourselves that you lobbed on here wanting to find out what the claims are, the reality is that you wanted to have a rant because you feel the pilots get something that you don't. You don't like it and despite the fact that you know nothing of our industry, our work or what it entails, and our claims, you want to believe that we don't 'deserve' it.

Dutch roll has probably covered off the issues. Our 'job security' claim is that if Qantas are going to trade on being the worlds 'most experienced airline' then it's only right that they continue to use the pilots that made it thus. Qantas flight, Qantas pilot is what we've asked for.

Travel claim? I spend 2/3 of my life away for home. Once upon a time I had 1-2 seats on every flight that I could use so that I could have my spouse or one of my kids with me at Christmas. They wer uncomfortable but if the cabin was full, they could still travel. Due to some terrorists I o longer have that. Pilots are asking for the ability to ensure that a month prior, if there is a seat available, I won't have to worry about leaving my 11 year old in Darwin on her own because I've taken her away on her birthday due to not having physically seen her on her birthday for the preceding four years. Kids tend to remember these things.

Seniority lists are a double edged sword. They allow an orderly line to allow people to attempt promotion and to ensure transparency- particularly given merit is hard to measure in an airline environment. You still have to complete the training and I can't comment for other airlines command training but command training was harder by a significant margin than my bachelor degree. However, seniority chains you to an employer because despite my three years command experience, I start as the most junior F/O were I to go to Virgin.

Qantas too can off shore our work and make us redundant. In that respect we are no different to you. Personally I think that's a backward step for Qantas flight standards and would ultimately be the undoing of an aviation icon. Joyce et al have shown they don't care about standards and so perhaps your wish of a bunch of Qantas pilots being made redundant may come true. However, given how much I love Qantas and everyone it (used to) stand for, you'll excuse me for fighting to retain the high standards that most Aussies want to retain in Qantas aircraft.

Hope that answers some of your questions.

[Captain Gidday]

Airborne Soon said :

Just as I thought. No-one willing to articulate their claims in a way that's convincing or understandable but plenty of people willing to belittle and be nasty.

I'm really disappointed that so many people, even some Qantas pilots apparently, are falling for the Qantas PR Machine "It's all about job security" line. It's not. Let me take a stab at putting it clearly and simply.

Let's say Qantas sold seafood. Qantas says 'buy our seafood because it is caught by good Australian fisherman in Australian trawlers, complying with all Australian regulations'. So, you believe that and go and buy your fish from Qantas.

Then the Trawlermen try to tell you, 'Hey, wait a minute, some of those fish you are buying are from fish farms and some of them soon enough will be coming from rice paddies in Vietnam'.

The fishermen say, if it's got Qantas Australian Wild Caught Fish on the label, then you should be 100% assured [just like under the fair trading laws] that your fish is caught by genuine Australian fishermen, in Australian waters. Otherwise, Qantas, label your damned fish 'Raised in Fish Farms' or 'Produce of New Zealand'. Or if you are too to put proper labels on, Qantas, Aussie Trawlermen insist that at least you pay those fish farming folk the same wages as Aussie Trawlermen, so that you might then have no incentive to be 'clever' [I don't think I can use the 'de' word, for legal reasons] and you'll have no incentive to take the cheap and morally uncertain option of labelling all your fish sold under the Qantas brand the same.

Look, the Aussie Trawler Fisherman don't really care if Qantas chooses to bring out a canned product using farmed fish or imported fish, just so long as it is properly labelled. But people buying product A are currently getting product B or C, in the opinion of the Trawlermen.

That's what it is all about. [Just my own opinion, not an AIPA announcement]. I am using the term '..man' in it's wider form, as in 'hu.man'. If you are gender sensitive, please replace with the gender-neutral word 'folk' as required.

P.S. The Trawlermen know that their fishing skills are in high demand in other places, and if the big Qantas Fish Retailer denigrates them much further, they'll all take their trawlers to the Gulf, where prawns are plentiful and they can make a good living, tax free. The Aussie consumer will find it hard to find wild caught Aussie fish if that happens, in my opinion, though most seem not to care or even to know what good fish tastes like. Just so long as it is cheap.

[chuboy]

AirborneSoon's questions are validly directed at engineers also.

Would they care to answer?

[teresa green]

Why should you ask, in a country as rich and diverse as this one, is no one entitled to job security? Without job security, who wants to take on a mortgage? Who wants to risk having kids? You come out of school all bright eyed and bushy tailed, ready to take on the world, you are one of the lucky ones, born and bred in this country that has so much to offer, and yet you are not entitled to job security? Bull****. The question should be why in the lucky country is that people should be afraid for their jobs, not that they are not entitled to think they should have job security. Of course they should, Australia is forging ahead in the world, despite a govt. that is as useless as t#ts on a bull, but forging ahead anyway, its people are rich in so many ways, it amazes me that people still think that there is no job security, nor should there be, even in a airline that has been for the last ten years by firstly Dixon and now this bloke, it is still a very viable airline, and could and should offer job security especially to those it has heavily invested in, namely pilots and engineers, the fact that it cannot or won't shows the problem lies with the management of the airline, not the unfortunates that it seeks to destroy.