DASH 8 accident in PNG
Rad ALT ALive,
That experience doesn't sound good at all.
I flew some very old aircraft as well, however wear that bad causing that to happen is more due to bad maintenance/inspection or some pilot at some point not reporting such operation as a possible fault needing investigation.
Engine controls are to be inspected for correct operation on certain phase inspections if I recall correctly.
As you said when you tried it on another aircraft not worn out below limits it was impossible to do accidently even when abusing them.
That experience doesn't sound good at all.
I flew some very old aircraft as well, however wear that bad causing that to happen is more due to bad maintenance/inspection or some pilot at some point not reporting such operation as a possible fault needing investigation.
Engine controls are to be inspected for correct operation on certain phase inspections if I recall correctly.
As you said when you tried it on another aircraft not worn out below limits it was impossible to do accidently even when abusing them.
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Ejector
sorry, no link. It was a hard coy that I read.
There was an email address for inquiries so you could try it for a copy. Address as follows.
[email protected]
sorry, no link. It was a hard coy that I read.
There was an email address for inquiries so you could try it for a copy. Address as follows.
[email protected]
The AOMs are on the iflybombardier.com website if you have access otherwise i've stuck it up here.
http://www.filedropper.com/8aom971
I've been on Dash 8s for nearly 17 years and only seen a failure of the flight idle gate once. In that case the beta horn wouldn't sound either.
http://www.filedropper.com/8aom971
I've been on Dash 8s for nearly 17 years and only seen a failure of the flight idle gate once. In that case the beta horn wouldn't sound either.
Out of interest can you advise what caused the gate to fail?
Buggered if I know how it happened.
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This one will take 12 months minimum. Possibly up to 18 months.
The bureaucratic pony pooh and layers of Political person(s) the final report has to go through is what generally adds to the timeframe unfortunately.
However, should, and I say should the airline itself be found to blame or be partially to blame for any reason such as cost cutting, lack of/inefficient training, corner cutting, safety issues, or any element of such nature then I hope the accountable mangers/directors are thrown in the big house. That is after all why the laws changed some time back and accountability as well as punitive measures can and should be considered against the accountable persons needs to be upheld.
Then again it could have been just a latent condition/design fault or simple pilot error.
The bureaucratic pony pooh and layers of Political person(s) the final report has to go through is what generally adds to the timeframe unfortunately.
However, should, and I say should the airline itself be found to blame or be partially to blame for any reason such as cost cutting, lack of/inefficient training, corner cutting, safety issues, or any element of such nature then I hope the accountable mangers/directors are thrown in the big house. That is after all why the laws changed some time back and accountability as well as punitive measures can and should be considered against the accountable persons needs to be upheld.
Then again it could have been just a latent condition/design fault or simple pilot error.
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I for one admire the tenacity and brilliance of both pilots, they took on the impossible, and a few survived. For that these blokes should be honored.
Whist most people in the loop now know what happened, in my opinion this was a classic case of all the holes lining up before the event. In APNG's defence to my knowledge they acted very appropriately after the event in terms of assisting the investigators and implementing new procedures, which included a considerable amount of additional crew training that involved every pilot on their Dash 8 fleet.
Only expats have all the accidents (???????) That's a very derogatory statement, please qualify or remove it
Only expats have all the accidents (???????) That's a very derogatory statement, please qualify or remove it
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And the winner is.............
An award did I here you say???
I found this unbelievable article online. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry?
My bolding……..
I thought some additional background information was worthy of consideration. Especially when ‘safety awards’ are being handed out?
- Almost half of the deaths have occurred since 2009, over a 3 year period
- 3 of the accidents occurred during the 3 year period mentioned above
- Where is the accountability for all these deaths? Why aren’t Directors, Managing Directors and CEO’s sitting in the ‘big house’? Is that why there is shuffling of the deck chairs taking place recently?
- If you do your own research and look at the ownership of the airline, as well as the internal shufflings between APNG and ‘another Australian carrier’ you will see some interesting connections. The same ‘connection’ owns both airlines, also the APNG CFO has moved to the Australian carrier, the Australian carriers CEO has moved to APNG….Hmmmmm.
ADDITIONAL ARTICLE:
And this is just one airlines statistics. Where is the accident report into the 2011 Dash 8 crash? How many more innocent lives will be lost in PNG? How many more pilots will be lost in PNG?????
And another article from not too far in the past, from the SMH:
It seems to me like somebody is sitting back counting their pennies at the cost of innocent blood? How do these individuals sleep at night? Why does it appear that there is no accountability? Are not the laws supposed to protect the innocent and make the accountable person(s) actually accountable for deaths that occur under their watch?
How many pilots and innocent passenger deaths will it take to bring some justice to those affected? Remember, 86 deaths with countless families living through another Xmas without mothers, fathers, children and grandparents. May those of us with a conscience and a soul remember that in our thoughts as we sleep comfortably in our beds tonight. And may the accountable managers who are content to lay down their heads at night after counting their illustrious pennies also remember the blood that is on their hands.
I found this unbelievable article online. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry?
My bolding……..
ARTICLE:
“We are naturally delighted with this award and take great pride in it on behalf of all our staff who have worked tirelessly to follow the airline’s safety program” said Gary Toomey the CEO of Airlines PNG, “We set extremely high standards for our staff in all aspects of the business and to have an independent organisation recognise the efforts being made is extremely gratifying. All those travelling with Airlines PNG can take comfort in the fact that their safety is our main priority”.
Larry Watson, Aviation Manager for EHL paid tribute to the staff of Airlines PNG. “Airlines PNG was chosen for this award because it has genuinely embraced Esso Highlands Limited’s high safety standards and delivers them consistently. Having policies and procedures regarding safety is one thing but ensuring that management support and staff work to these policies is the key. We are pleased to see the work done by Airlines PNG staff in ensuring safe work practices and continuous improvement is ingrained in the company culture.”
Airlines PNG is regularly audited by all of its resource customers in addition to annual audits conducted by PNG CASA, CASA Australia, Virgin Australia and the BARS flights safety foundation. This audit program is far more rigorous and demanding than audits conducted on other aviation providers in PNG and gives all passengers tangible proof of the airline’s commitment to safe air travel.
Full details of the Airlines PNG Safety Program can be found on Welcome to Airlines PNG-Home Page
“We are naturally delighted with this award and take great pride in it on behalf of all our staff who have worked tirelessly to follow the airline’s safety program” said Gary Toomey the CEO of Airlines PNG, “We set extremely high standards for our staff in all aspects of the business and to have an independent organisation recognise the efforts being made is extremely gratifying. All those travelling with Airlines PNG can take comfort in the fact that their safety is our main priority”.
Larry Watson, Aviation Manager for EHL paid tribute to the staff of Airlines PNG. “Airlines PNG was chosen for this award because it has genuinely embraced Esso Highlands Limited’s high safety standards and delivers them consistently. Having policies and procedures regarding safety is one thing but ensuring that management support and staff work to these policies is the key. We are pleased to see the work done by Airlines PNG staff in ensuring safe work practices and continuous improvement is ingrained in the company culture.”
Airlines PNG is regularly audited by all of its resource customers in addition to annual audits conducted by PNG CASA, CASA Australia, Virgin Australia and the BARS flights safety foundation. This audit program is far more rigorous and demanding than audits conducted on other aviation providers in PNG and gives all passengers tangible proof of the airline’s commitment to safe air travel.
Full details of the Airlines PNG Safety Program can be found on Welcome to Airlines PNG-Home Page
- Almost half of the deaths have occurred since 2009, over a 3 year period
- 3 of the accidents occurred during the 3 year period mentioned above
- Where is the accountability for all these deaths? Why aren’t Directors, Managing Directors and CEO’s sitting in the ‘big house’? Is that why there is shuffling of the deck chairs taking place recently?
- If you do your own research and look at the ownership of the airline, as well as the internal shufflings between APNG and ‘another Australian carrier’ you will see some interesting connections. The same ‘connection’ owns both airlines, also the APNG CFO has moved to the Australian carrier, the Australian carriers CEO has moved to APNG….Hmmmmm.
ADDITIONAL ARTICLE:
History of APNG Crashes
Source: Weekender, Post Courier, October 15 - 16, 2011
Airlines PNG, formerly Milne Bay Air (MBA) established and began operations in 1987.
Since then there have been numerous light aircraft incidents. Here are those that were reported over the years through the Post-Courier archives.
1991, November 30
- MBA Twin engine queen air
- Gurney Airport, Milne Bay
- Five hurt no fatalities
- Smoke appeared from right wing and pilot forced to make emergency landing
- Expatriate pilot broke leg
1992, December 15
- MBA Norman Britten Islander aircraft
- 6 dead, expatriate pilot and five passengers
- Crashed in mountains 10km north east of Alotau
1995, July 12
- MBA twin otter
- Exploded in air shortly after take-off at Gurney Airport
- 15 dead
- Investigations revealed kerosene leak in cargo section caused explosion
1996, May 11
- MBA Norman Britten Islander
- 1 death
- Crashed in trees near Oumba
1996, July 9
- Twin Otter
- 20 deaths
- Struck a mountain in cloudy conditions in Mendi
2004
- APNG twin otter
- Crashed in Goilala, Central Province
- 3 dead including expatriate pilot and nation female first officer, one survivor (Nati Ario – loadmaster)
2009, August 11
- APNG twin otter
- Crashed in bad weather in the Owen Stanley Ranges
- 6 nautical miles from Kokoda Airstrip
- 13 dead
2010, January 20
- APNG EMO twin otter
- Ran off runway while trying to take-off at Kikori Airstrip
- No fatalities, but aircraft suffered extensive damage
2011, October 13-
APNG Dash 8 headed for Madang
- Crashed at Transgogol in Madang
- 28 dead & 4 Survivors including the two pilots
Source: Weekender, Post Courier, October 15 - 16, 2011
Airlines PNG, formerly Milne Bay Air (MBA) established and began operations in 1987.
Since then there have been numerous light aircraft incidents. Here are those that were reported over the years through the Post-Courier archives.
1991, November 30
- MBA Twin engine queen air
- Gurney Airport, Milne Bay
- Five hurt no fatalities
- Smoke appeared from right wing and pilot forced to make emergency landing
- Expatriate pilot broke leg
1992, December 15
- MBA Norman Britten Islander aircraft
- 6 dead, expatriate pilot and five passengers
- Crashed in mountains 10km north east of Alotau
1995, July 12
- MBA twin otter
- Exploded in air shortly after take-off at Gurney Airport
- 15 dead
- Investigations revealed kerosene leak in cargo section caused explosion
1996, May 11
- MBA Norman Britten Islander
- 1 death
- Crashed in trees near Oumba
1996, July 9
- Twin Otter
- 20 deaths
- Struck a mountain in cloudy conditions in Mendi
2004
- APNG twin otter
- Crashed in Goilala, Central Province
- 3 dead including expatriate pilot and nation female first officer, one survivor (Nati Ario – loadmaster)
2009, August 11
- APNG twin otter
- Crashed in bad weather in the Owen Stanley Ranges
- 6 nautical miles from Kokoda Airstrip
- 13 dead
2010, January 20
- APNG EMO twin otter
- Ran off runway while trying to take-off at Kikori Airstrip
- No fatalities, but aircraft suffered extensive damage
2011, October 13-
APNG Dash 8 headed for Madang
- Crashed at Transgogol in Madang
- 28 dead & 4 Survivors including the two pilots
And another article from not too far in the past, from the SMH:
PNG airline defends safety record
Date July 27, 2010
AAP
A Papua New Guinea airline has defended its safety record as the nation prepares for the first anniversary of the Kokoda plane crash that killed 13 people, including nine Australians.
Seven Victorians and two Queenslanders died when Airlines PNG (APNG) flight 4684 crashed en route to Kokoda on August 11, 2009.
Two PNG pilots and a Japanese tourist also died.
In less than a year since the crash, there have been three mishaps involving APNG - including one incident in which a plane veered off the runaway during take off.
The other two incidents involved a plane becoming bogged in wet ground, and another aircraft that had a flat tyre and damage to a wheel fairing.
APNG spokeswoman Danae Jones told AAP the airline had "impeccable safety standards" but would not discuss its maintenance procedures, the age of its fleet or improvements made since the Kokoda crash.
"In the absence of a state issued accident report, and consequent understanding of the reason for the accident, it would not be appropriate to isolate improvements in the organisation, at risk of this implying these may have been causal factors in the Kokoda accident," she said.
But the accident report could be a long time coming because PNG's only air crash investigator was effectively sacked before he had finished his probe into the crash.
PNG chief accident investigator, Sid O'Toole, was almost finished his report into the crash when his contract with the Civil Aviation Authority expired on July 11 and was not renewed.
"I am no longer legally able to work on the report because I am not a Department of Transport employee," Mr O'Toole told AAP.
Mr O'Toole, who has repeatedly called for greater government action on aviation safety, said APNG had improved its operation since the Kokoda crash.
"But what's happened to me shows how serious PNG takes air safety," he said.
At the time of the Kokoda crash, Mr O'Toole revealed PNG authorities had failed to properly investigate 19 air crashes which had killed 16 people, including three Australians and three New Zealanders, since 2000.
In January this year, APNG and the Australian government suspended flights to four village airstrips along the Kokoda Track following safety concerns.
The same month, an APNG aircraft veered off the runaway during take off in Kikori, Gulf Province on PNG's southwest coast.
Ms Jones said APNG stopped operating at Kikori four months ago due to the standard of the runway.
In November last year, a plane became bogged in wet ground when it was servicing mining company Xstrata's Frieda River copper mine in PNG's northwest.
Some time after that, another aircraft got a flat tyre and associated crack to plastic on one of the wheel fairings.
However, Ms Jones said APNG stood by its safety record.
"The reality is the standard of aerodromes within PNG continues to decline, and for all the effort the entire industry puts in to maximising the safety of our collective operations, PNG remains one of the most challenging places in the world to fly, and these declines in infrastructure continue to challenge the industry," she said.
The 2009 Kokoda crash wasn't APNG's first major accident in a country known for rugged terrain, harsh conditions and unpredictable weather.
In July 2004 an Australian pilot and PNG co-pilot died when their APNG twin otter carrying cargo crashed approximately 100 km north of Port Moresby.
Date July 27, 2010
AAP
A Papua New Guinea airline has defended its safety record as the nation prepares for the first anniversary of the Kokoda plane crash that killed 13 people, including nine Australians.
Seven Victorians and two Queenslanders died when Airlines PNG (APNG) flight 4684 crashed en route to Kokoda on August 11, 2009.
Two PNG pilots and a Japanese tourist also died.
In less than a year since the crash, there have been three mishaps involving APNG - including one incident in which a plane veered off the runaway during take off.
The other two incidents involved a plane becoming bogged in wet ground, and another aircraft that had a flat tyre and damage to a wheel fairing.
APNG spokeswoman Danae Jones told AAP the airline had "impeccable safety standards" but would not discuss its maintenance procedures, the age of its fleet or improvements made since the Kokoda crash.
"In the absence of a state issued accident report, and consequent understanding of the reason for the accident, it would not be appropriate to isolate improvements in the organisation, at risk of this implying these may have been causal factors in the Kokoda accident," she said.
But the accident report could be a long time coming because PNG's only air crash investigator was effectively sacked before he had finished his probe into the crash.
PNG chief accident investigator, Sid O'Toole, was almost finished his report into the crash when his contract with the Civil Aviation Authority expired on July 11 and was not renewed.
"I am no longer legally able to work on the report because I am not a Department of Transport employee," Mr O'Toole told AAP.
Mr O'Toole, who has repeatedly called for greater government action on aviation safety, said APNG had improved its operation since the Kokoda crash.
"But what's happened to me shows how serious PNG takes air safety," he said.
At the time of the Kokoda crash, Mr O'Toole revealed PNG authorities had failed to properly investigate 19 air crashes which had killed 16 people, including three Australians and three New Zealanders, since 2000.
In January this year, APNG and the Australian government suspended flights to four village airstrips along the Kokoda Track following safety concerns.
The same month, an APNG aircraft veered off the runaway during take off in Kikori, Gulf Province on PNG's southwest coast.
Ms Jones said APNG stopped operating at Kikori four months ago due to the standard of the runway.
In November last year, a plane became bogged in wet ground when it was servicing mining company Xstrata's Frieda River copper mine in PNG's northwest.
Some time after that, another aircraft got a flat tyre and associated crack to plastic on one of the wheel fairings.
However, Ms Jones said APNG stood by its safety record.
"The reality is the standard of aerodromes within PNG continues to decline, and for all the effort the entire industry puts in to maximising the safety of our collective operations, PNG remains one of the most challenging places in the world to fly, and these declines in infrastructure continue to challenge the industry," she said.
The 2009 Kokoda crash wasn't APNG's first major accident in a country known for rugged terrain, harsh conditions and unpredictable weather.
In July 2004 an Australian pilot and PNG co-pilot died when their APNG twin otter carrying cargo crashed approximately 100 km north of Port Moresby.
How many pilots and innocent passenger deaths will it take to bring some justice to those affected? Remember, 86 deaths with countless families living through another Xmas without mothers, fathers, children and grandparents. May those of us with a conscience and a soul remember that in our thoughts as we sleep comfortably in our beds tonight. And may the accountable managers who are content to lay down their heads at night after counting their illustrious pennies also remember the blood that is on their hands.
Last edited by my oleo is extended; 28th Dec 2012 at 10:15.
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Ms Jones said APNG stopped operating at Kikori four months ago due to the standard of the runway.
In November last year, a plane became bogged in wet ground when it was servicing mining company Xstrata's Frieda River copper mine in PNG's northwest.
In November last year, a plane became bogged in wet ground when it was servicing mining company Xstrata's Frieda River copper mine in PNG's northwest.
I can recall operators complaining/ boycotting KIK years ago due to the WW2 era steel planking breaking up at the joints, creating sharp edges that were perfect for shredding tyres. Sections of frunway had to be skillfully navigated during take off and landing.
Unless Freida strip has been moved it was always a boggy track even by PNG standards, due to the fact that it was literally right on the river bank and only a few inches above the water in parts. If you haven't come close to being bogged or at least side-ways at Freida, then you're either a helicopter pilot or you're lucky enough to not go there too often.
Last edited by psycho joe; 28th Dec 2012 at 11:21.
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More than a little short sighted
It is amazingly disappointing that an award like that can be given so soon after accidents that have resulted in multiple fatalities. It would be a real slap in the face for the families of those lost or injured in the recent accidents. The fact that this award has been made would appear to indicate that those accidents are normal and not worthy of consideration when making such awards
Perhaps EHL should have looked further afield to the sister company in Australia and the apparently toxic environment therein. From what I have heard the safety manager left in disgust and there remains a culture of blame even to the point that senior staff are accusing each other of setting each other up for incidents. That is not evidence of a healthy safety culture especially where the two companies apparently share and/or borrow senior management.
EHL may end up with egg on their face for giving this award if the organisation(s) doesn't learn from previous problems.
Perhaps EHL should have looked further afield to the sister company in Australia and the apparently toxic environment therein. From what I have heard the safety manager left in disgust and there remains a culture of blame even to the point that senior staff are accusing each other of setting each other up for incidents. That is not evidence of a healthy safety culture especially where the two companies apparently share and/or borrow senior management.
EHL may end up with egg on their face for giving this award if the organisation(s) doesn't learn from previous problems.
Spike,
Whilst I agree with your first paragraph, you couldn't resist having a dig at Skytrans in the rest of the post, could you?
The Skytrans bashing is ongoing from you, let it go man...
Whilst I agree with your first paragraph, you couldn't resist having a dig at Skytrans in the rest of the post, could you?
The Skytrans bashing is ongoing from you, let it go man...
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Not meant as a Skytrans bashing
I would much rather comment on the sharing of a strong safety culture and good accident history between the two organisations. My point is simply that this type of award and some audit results can be held up by operators as marketing tools when they may not necessarily reflect all the facts. From my experience these awards usually reflect how the operator fits in with the customer's systems and these are usually aimed at OH&S issues.
Good on them for winning an award but lets not ignore what it relates to.
Hopefully in the future, both organisations will be awarded for stellar safety performance across the board.
Good on them for winning an award but lets not ignore what it relates to.
Hopefully in the future, both organisations will be awarded for stellar safety performance across the board.
Last edited by flying-spike; 29th Dec 2012 at 00:07.
A good post Oleo.
Post Courier forgot to mention a certian very close shave in IMC with the Kuta Ridge, DHC-6 (P2 MCE) in 2011. Skipper with more than 30 years in country time conducting "DIY" GPS procedure into Hagan. Very lucky to get away with it, and I'm very glad they did.
Also neglected to mention the multiple SE air returns / diversions that same year.
Since Madang it's extremely disappointing to learn that only 1 of APNG's DHC-8 fleet (P2 MCM) has had the mandated Beta Backup mods retrofitted (with ongoing probelms, accordind to the boys at T2).
It doesn't help when CASA PNG allows seamingly unlimited extensions to the process. This is even more insulting to those affected by this most traumatic event when "Wilde Air PNG" proudly announces a K3.8M profit in 2011 finacial year.
Once again the Wildes are putting profits before safety.
Given that the deck chair reshuffling is now going on across the Coral Sea, not just in POM, the accountability can be diluted even further.
It will however be interesting to see how SW can pull off a Talair with such clapped out equipment & disfunctional management.
The wheels can't be far from falling off this shower of ****, just pray no more lives are lost in the process.
Post Courier forgot to mention a certian very close shave in IMC with the Kuta Ridge, DHC-6 (P2 MCE) in 2011. Skipper with more than 30 years in country time conducting "DIY" GPS procedure into Hagan. Very lucky to get away with it, and I'm very glad they did.
Also neglected to mention the multiple SE air returns / diversions that same year.
Since Madang it's extremely disappointing to learn that only 1 of APNG's DHC-8 fleet (P2 MCM) has had the mandated Beta Backup mods retrofitted (with ongoing probelms, accordind to the boys at T2).
It doesn't help when CASA PNG allows seamingly unlimited extensions to the process. This is even more insulting to those affected by this most traumatic event when "Wilde Air PNG" proudly announces a K3.8M profit in 2011 finacial year.
Once again the Wildes are putting profits before safety.
Given that the deck chair reshuffling is now going on across the Coral Sea, not just in POM, the accountability can be diluted even further.
It will however be interesting to see how SW can pull off a Talair with such clapped out equipment & disfunctional management.
The wheels can't be far from falling off this shower of ****, just pray no more lives are lost in the process.
I stand corrected.
nope you are wrong about the beta back up system.
All aircraft have it installed, last 2 or 3 done a couple of months ago.
All aircraft have it installed, last 2 or 3 done a couple of months ago.
About time, but good to see that it has finally happened
.