QF029 HKG - LHR turnback?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Roguesville, cloud cuckooland
Posts: 1,197
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes
on
5 Posts
FatMike, you appear to be having a go at this crew for;
a. admitting the error.
b. Obeying the law by not continuing.
I can name you a dozen airlines, nay two dozen, that would have done neither.
In a Aviation industry that is yet to eliminate errors, you tell me which is the safer option?
a. admitting the error.
b. Obeying the law by not continuing.
I can name you a dozen airlines, nay two dozen, that would have done neither.
In a Aviation industry that is yet to eliminate errors, you tell me which is the safer option?
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: sydney
Age: 76
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But are the famous Qantas Pilots not the best ? surely they could never make a mistake . Oh , not like those Asian fellows , surely .Could I have another G&T please .
All I can say is the buck stops with the Commander, if he departed without the correct charts who is to blame????
All this finger pointing does not absolve the Captain of his duties, complacency can be costly I'm afraid.
All this finger pointing does not absolve the Captain of his duties, complacency can be costly I'm afraid.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: fairfield
Age: 82
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you appear to be having a go at this crew for;
I find the comment re standing the crew down laughable just as I find the comments of the "press-on" merchants.
Yes the captain is ultimately responsible, notwithstanding the delegation of duties to the the 2 S/Os. These are the sort of guys who covet the RHS and LHS jobs and are very critical that their careers are being "rooned" (in Aussie lingo) but seem to have problems getting their current duties right, having let their captain down. The poor old captain has to wear it but it goes with the job.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: fairfield
Age: 82
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And don't forget there were 2 lots of S/Os who weren't doing do what they are paid to do. The aircraft originated in Melbourne where, if the shortfall had been picked up, some recovery may have been possible. Maybe they were still unpacking their red ties
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dubai
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fatmike, here is an excerpt from my Operations Manual:
Responsibilities & Duties - Commander (not all listed)
t. Ensure that the documents and manuals listed in the Operations Manual Part A Section 8 are carried and will remain valid throughout the flight or series of flights and be produced, when requested, to a person authorised by the authority.
Flight Preparation Instructions
A Commander shall not commence a flight unless he is satisfied that (not all listed):
g. Current Maps, charts and associated documents or equivalent data are available to cover the intended operation of the aeroplane including any diversion which may reasonably be expected (this includes conversion tables where necessary to support operations where metric heights, altitudes and flight levels are to be used.
Emergency Situations
Where procedures do not exist for a particular emergency situation and where the situation requires immediate decision and action, the Commander is authorised to take any action he considers necessary under the circumstances. In such cases he may deviate from normally applicable regulations, operational procedures and methods in the interest of safety.
I deem that in the interest of safety I would continue rather than to return to Hong Kong and dump however many tonnes of fuel so as to land below MLW.
I would've continued on that particular flight.
I agree that it is a stuff up and I am ultimately responsible, but that's how I would've run it.
Good aeroplane, good weather & I know London like the back of my hand.
Resources available: ACARS, SATPHONE, iPad charts, ATC, FMC etc.
I would submit an ASR upon landing and wait for the tea & biscuits email (which I'm quite certain would come after I arrived back in Dubai) lol
Kind regards
Responsibilities & Duties - Commander (not all listed)
t. Ensure that the documents and manuals listed in the Operations Manual Part A Section 8 are carried and will remain valid throughout the flight or series of flights and be produced, when requested, to a person authorised by the authority.
Flight Preparation Instructions
A Commander shall not commence a flight unless he is satisfied that (not all listed):
g. Current Maps, charts and associated documents or equivalent data are available to cover the intended operation of the aeroplane including any diversion which may reasonably be expected (this includes conversion tables where necessary to support operations where metric heights, altitudes and flight levels are to be used.
Emergency Situations
Where procedures do not exist for a particular emergency situation and where the situation requires immediate decision and action, the Commander is authorised to take any action he considers necessary under the circumstances. In such cases he may deviate from normally applicable regulations, operational procedures and methods in the interest of safety.
I deem that in the interest of safety I would continue rather than to return to Hong Kong and dump however many tonnes of fuel so as to land below MLW.
I would've continued on that particular flight.
I agree that it is a stuff up and I am ultimately responsible, but that's how I would've run it.
Good aeroplane, good weather & I know London like the back of my hand.
Resources available: ACARS, SATPHONE, iPad charts, ATC, FMC etc.
I would submit an ASR upon landing and wait for the tea & biscuits email (which I'm quite certain would come after I arrived back in Dubai) lol
Kind regards
Last edited by Bypass ratio; 15th Sep 2011 at 11:51.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Australia
Age: 58
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Couldn't agree more with you Bypass Ratio. I would have done exactly what you said.. The knock on effect was monumental.
Apparently it was noticed half way, called in and Capt then ordered to turn around by Head of Flying Ops...
Apparently it was noticed half way, called in and Capt then ordered to turn around by Head of Flying Ops...
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: fairfield
Age: 82
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What do you say about CAR 233?
What if you had a medical/mechanical/operational problem that required you to go to a place that you didn't know like the back of your hand?
The completely safe option is to go somewhere you had all the charts for notwithstanding the fallout and the embarrassment.
The less safe and less prudent option is to press on in the hope and the expectation that nothing will change to cause other than a normal flight where you can consult the back of your hand and execute your approach into London.
I'd suggest to you that the latter is not the way Qantas expects its commanders to operate.
PS If you are with Emirates, I'd point out to you that unlike Emirates and others, Qantas doesn't sack its pilots for making an operational mistake.
What if you had a medical/mechanical/operational problem that required you to go to a place that you didn't know like the back of your hand?
The completely safe option is to go somewhere you had all the charts for notwithstanding the fallout and the embarrassment.
The less safe and less prudent option is to press on in the hope and the expectation that nothing will change to cause other than a normal flight where you can consult the back of your hand and execute your approach into London.
I'd suggest to you that the latter is not the way Qantas expects its commanders to operate.
PS If you are with Emirates, I'd point out to you that unlike Emirates and others, Qantas doesn't sack its pilots for making an operational mistake.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dubai
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly I am not privy to CAR233. I suppose I could look it up on the CASA website but I couldn't be bothered. In my part of the world (ICAO signatory) my operations manual covers what's written in the regulations. I'm pretty sure QF would be the same.
If we go down the path of "what if" we could be here all day for me and all night for you.
For eg. You say "what if I get a medical diversion enroute". Okay, now the plot thickens. Question: am I completely devoid of charts or do I not have EGLL only?
If I don't have any charts whatsoever, I would then have to manage the situation slightly more cautiously. However I would still continue. Again I would use the same resources to get me into London as I would into BAKU. What geographical route do you take from VHHH to EGLL? I am fairly familiar with quite a few aerodromes between OMDB and VHHH. Weather - ok northern hemisphere summer is pretty good through Europe. Monsoon in Asia etc etc. Its all big picture stuff
In regards to your last comment Fatmike, all I can say is this: I flew with a Qantas subsidiary (as a Captain) many years ago. I was not considered good enough to be a Second Officer with mainline (which is quite funny given the topic at hand). I had to take my skills offshore to a place where as you mentioned, different rules apply. All I can say is that at 36 years of age with a Command on the 777 flying all over the world and earning the equivalent of 343000 AUD gross......it's a small price to pay.
If we go down the path of "what if" we could be here all day for me and all night for you.
For eg. You say "what if I get a medical diversion enroute". Okay, now the plot thickens. Question: am I completely devoid of charts or do I not have EGLL only?
If I don't have any charts whatsoever, I would then have to manage the situation slightly more cautiously. However I would still continue. Again I would use the same resources to get me into London as I would into BAKU. What geographical route do you take from VHHH to EGLL? I am fairly familiar with quite a few aerodromes between OMDB and VHHH. Weather - ok northern hemisphere summer is pretty good through Europe. Monsoon in Asia etc etc. Its all big picture stuff
In regards to your last comment Fatmike, all I can say is this: I flew with a Qantas subsidiary (as a Captain) many years ago. I was not considered good enough to be a Second Officer with mainline (which is quite funny given the topic at hand). I had to take my skills offshore to a place where as you mentioned, different rules apply. All I can say is that at 36 years of age with a Command on the 777 flying all over the world and earning the equivalent of 343000 AUD gross......it's a small price to pay.
Last edited by Bypass ratio; 15th Sep 2011 at 12:23.
It's the old story!
The buck stops with the Captain!
But in how many places can they be at any one time?
Things will slip through the cracks occassionally.
Who was responsible for putting the charts onboard in the first place?
The buck stops with the Captain!
But in how many places can they be at any one time?
Things will slip through the cracks occassionally.
Who was responsible for putting the charts onboard in the first place?
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At CX all long haul airplanes have a worldwide library onboard (single copy).
Additionally there are two sets of "Mini Jepp" containing the departure, destination and primary alternates issued to the operating pilots at dispatch.
The S/O gets a glare if, when the Captain reaches for his chart book, the West charts are there instead of the East charts or vv. Fortunately it can be corrected by injuring one's shoulders and lifting the flight library out of the cupboard!.
I'm with the iPad crew - if only we could get ICAO to agree.
.
Additionally there are two sets of "Mini Jepp" containing the departure, destination and primary alternates issued to the operating pilots at dispatch.
The S/O gets a glare if, when the Captain reaches for his chart book, the West charts are there instead of the East charts or vv. Fortunately it can be corrected by injuring one's shoulders and lifting the flight library out of the cupboard!.
I'm with the iPad crew - if only we could get ICAO to agree.
.
Master Caution, Cathay seem to have it right.
This shouldn't happen but it does. I'm not going to criticise anyone as I've had my fair share of f$&kups over the years. This is a real organisational failure however.
Having 3 possible flight libraries seems to be a recipe for disaster. This is not the first time this has happened in QF. I know of at least one, possibly two, other occurrence(s) in the last 10 years. Until such time as a decent efb is introduced with all charts why not put the Pacific and Euro charts on all 400s and also put the Americas books on the -ERs?
Cost analysis on the risk of a diversion anyone?
This shouldn't happen but it does. I'm not going to criticise anyone as I've had my fair share of f$&kups over the years. This is a real organisational failure however.
Having 3 possible flight libraries seems to be a recipe for disaster. This is not the first time this has happened in QF. I know of at least one, possibly two, other occurrence(s) in the last 10 years. Until such time as a decent efb is introduced with all charts why not put the Pacific and Euro charts on all 400s and also put the Americas books on the -ERs?
Cost analysis on the risk of a diversion anyone?
About time
Does it surprise any line pilots this has happened?
The company continues to abuse the professionalism of the pilot group to be vigilant whilst it continues to ramp up industrial pressure unabated taking NO responsibility for its own actions which are severely detrimental to safe and harmonious operations.
That a few Second Officers or other crew may overlook such a thing is hardly surprising give they have been made to expect to lose their jobs through the machinations of AJ and his mob.
I tip my hat for to all the crew able to keep up their vigilance during this continuous onslaught.
Thank God we are only talking some embarrassment and nothing more serious.
The company continues to abuse the professionalism of the pilot group to be vigilant whilst it continues to ramp up industrial pressure unabated taking NO responsibility for its own actions which are severely detrimental to safe and harmonious operations.
That a few Second Officers or other crew may overlook such a thing is hardly surprising give they have been made to expect to lose their jobs through the machinations of AJ and his mob.
I tip my hat for to all the crew able to keep up their vigilance during this continuous onslaught.
Thank God we are only talking some embarrassment and nothing more serious.
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: UpSideDown
Age: 45
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an SLF I was on QF29 on the way to London one day and we had to wait a few extra minutes to deport honkers. The reason for the delay was that the required maps were not on the plane and and to be procured.
