Virgin & VIPA - pay rise
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Oh and one last thing.
I think Mr. Borghetti has one thing that most management people lack these days...LEADERSHIP.
It is a lost art among the NEW HR types....they may be good at managing, but they have zero leadership skills....Mr. Borghetti has that...He is a leader...
I think Mr. Borghetti has one thing that most management people lack these days...LEADERSHIP.
It is a lost art among the NEW HR types....they may be good at managing, but they have zero leadership skills....Mr. Borghetti has that...He is a leader...
Join Date: May 2005
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VIPA would have organised all that. They have claimed responsability for single handedly having done just about everything else without help or assistance from anyone.....according to them, anyway!
Best we thank them.
Best we thank them.
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Regardless of whether VIPA pulled it all off, Borghetti's leadership seemed to make it an easier transaction. Negotiations are never straight forward but it's been a pleasure working for the man.
Join Date: May 2005
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Yes I was taking the piss.
JB is the only reason for the changes we have seen. If that other idiot was still around and in charge none of the changes that have occurred over the last 12 months would have transpired. My point was VIPA have taken credit for most of these changes suggesting it's their superior union and negotiation skills have resulted in these dramatic changes when in actual fact they would have occurred anyway due solely to a change in management.
Still it makes for an entertaining read of their news letters.
JB is the only reason for the changes we have seen. If that other idiot was still around and in charge none of the changes that have occurred over the last 12 months would have transpired. My point was VIPA have taken credit for most of these changes suggesting it's their superior union and negotiation skills have resulted in these dramatic changes when in actual fact they would have occurred anyway due solely to a change in management.
Still it makes for an entertaining read of their news letters.
Join Date: Aug 2011
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when in actual fact they would have occurred anyway due solely to a change in management
Hmmmmmmmm........... Do you really think JB would have rolled out of bed one morning and decided, "gee i might give the pilots a 30% pay rise" if ther hadn't been a union.
I don't.
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when in actual fact they would have occurred anyway due solely to a change in management
Hmmmmmmmm........... Do you really think JB would have rolled out of bed one morning and decided, "gee i might give the pilots a 30% pay rise, a credit system, a bit if overtime, some callout pay, free travel to duty, better loss of licence etc etc if ther hadn't been a union.
I don't think so.
Join Date: May 2005
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Uh no! These changes would have occurred as part of the EBA negotiation process with or without VIPA. The tone of negotiations has certainly changes since the departure of BG.
The negotiation process proceeded as it did due to the influence and intervention of JB and not because of any amazing performance as claimed by VIPA. They never proved themselves with the previous management.
If this round of negotiation had occurred under BG we would have an entirely different outcome.
The negotiation process proceeded as it did due to the influence and intervention of JB and not because of any amazing performance as claimed by VIPA. They never proved themselves with the previous management.
If this round of negotiation had occurred under BG we would have an entirely different outcome.
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VIPA have taken a significant amount of credit for the EBA. Are they entitled to do this. I wouldn't have the faintest idea. BUT the last news letter was very disappointing in the thinly veiled attacks on the other union.
Gotta love Kingdom builders.
My 2c have a nice Day!!!!
Gotta love Kingdom builders.
My 2c have a nice Day!!!!
Join Date: May 2005
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The very reason I'm no longer a member. 95% bull**** by over exaggerating their membership, their success and their actual involvement in resolving issues.
If they only spent as much time working on their own issues and less time trying to bag the opposition they might actually he worth the membership fees.
If they only spent as much time working on their own issues and less time trying to bag the opposition they might actually he worth the membership fees.
Join Date: Aug 2011
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The very reason I'm no longer a member. 95% bull**** by over exaggerating their membership, their success and their actual involvement in resolving issues.
If they only spent as much time working on their own issues and less time trying to bag the opposition they might actually he worth the membership fee
If they only spent as much time working on their own issues and less time trying to bag the opposition they might actually he worth the membership fee
.. I too am no longer a member of the AFAP!
Join Date: May 2005
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I've gone back to the AFAP.
The silence emanating from VIPA during the DEC issue was amazing as was their contribution to the Senate enquiry. Oh thats right after all the big talk and bragging in the crew rooms about their meetings with the good senator they pulled out at the last minute and did not even make a submission. But then again from reading their new letter, they are all over every issue.
I attended a meeting a few years ago and the turn out was dismal to say the least. The next day and email went out stating that due to the incredible turn out they have been forced to run further meetings?? I must have missed the other guys there on the night. They then went on to claim over 400 members and over 50% of the VB pilots. When however asked to prove their claims in court they were unable to provide proof of even 200 members. From that time on I smelt a very large rat.
All they managed to prove to me was they are all talk and no action.
MY only regret is I did not see it earlier before i signed up.
The silence emanating from VIPA during the DEC issue was amazing as was their contribution to the Senate enquiry. Oh thats right after all the big talk and bragging in the crew rooms about their meetings with the good senator they pulled out at the last minute and did not even make a submission. But then again from reading their new letter, they are all over every issue.
I attended a meeting a few years ago and the turn out was dismal to say the least. The next day and email went out stating that due to the incredible turn out they have been forced to run further meetings?? I must have missed the other guys there on the night. They then went on to claim over 400 members and over 50% of the VB pilots. When however asked to prove their claims in court they were unable to provide proof of even 200 members. From that time on I smelt a very large rat.
All they managed to prove to me was they are all talk and no action.
MY only regret is I did not see it earlier before i signed up.
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Sorry FMCinop 
I didn't read your posts properly. I just assumed when you said you'd had enough of inaction and petty infighting you were talking about the AFAP.
I consider myself the average line driver in VB and I have been around for many years. I changed from the AFAP because I was getting sick of the "its the best your going to get" line and mentality...
I can tell you the tide has well and truly turned on the AFAP.. If you don't agree with this you are in denial! Almost everyone I know has had enough and has already or about to change to VIPA.. The people I know who are pro AFAP are indeed the minority. And that could be partly attributed to sentimental feelings they have. Much like a Football team that is under performing will still have loyal supporters..
Perhaps the AFAP could learn from Virgin and change any dead meat there might be in upper management.. at least then the damage might be at least minimised? If what you are saying about VIPA is true, then I would suggest you encourage the AFAP to change leadership and start being more appealing to the pilots as a union. I honestly haven't heard too many pilots say anything bad about VIPA, however almost everyone has had enough of the AFAP
I didn't read your posts properly. I just assumed when you said you'd had enough of inaction and petty infighting you were talking about the AFAP.I consider myself the average line driver in VB and I have been around for many years. I changed from the AFAP because I was getting sick of the "its the best your going to get" line and mentality...
I can tell you the tide has well and truly turned on the AFAP.. If you don't agree with this you are in denial! Almost everyone I know has had enough and has already or about to change to VIPA.. The people I know who are pro AFAP are indeed the minority. And that could be partly attributed to sentimental feelings they have. Much like a Football team that is under performing will still have loyal supporters..
Perhaps the AFAP could learn from Virgin and change any dead meat there might be in upper management.. at least then the damage might be at least minimised? If what you are saying about VIPA is true, then I would suggest you encourage the AFAP to change leadership and start being more appealing to the pilots as a union. I honestly haven't heard too many pilots say anything bad about VIPA, however almost everyone has had enough of the AFAP
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Have a read of the VIPA media release where they admit the VA agreement would have been a much different story if still under the previous management, the same management the AFAP had to deal with over the past 11 years. They admitted a large part of the success of the agreement was due to JB himself.
Most people are happy with the majority of the current VB EBA one which was negotiated with the previous government, the same one VIPA admitted would have resulted in a much different result if still part of the negotiation with VA.
I am not the only one who has returned to the AFAP. I number of other guys have also seen through the smoke and mirrors of the VIPA PR team and have also returned to the AFAP. VIPA are quoted telling the media they have the largest number of members in the VB group and are therefor the largest unison representing that group. The only problem is a large number are members of both and the "group" including VB,VA,PB has over 1200 pilots.
Before my resignation I asked one of the VIPA guys to name 1 significant thing they have done since being approved as a union. He could only rattle of a numbers small insignificant things, most of which were issues also being handled by the AFAP.
Most people are happy with the majority of the current VB EBA one which was negotiated with the previous government, the same one VIPA admitted would have resulted in a much different result if still part of the negotiation with VA.
I am not the only one who has returned to the AFAP. I number of other guys have also seen through the smoke and mirrors of the VIPA PR team and have also returned to the AFAP. VIPA are quoted telling the media they have the largest number of members in the VB group and are therefor the largest unison representing that group. The only problem is a large number are members of both and the "group" including VB,VA,PB has over 1200 pilots.
Before my resignation I asked one of the VIPA guys to name 1 significant thing they have done since being approved as a union. He could only rattle of a numbers small insignificant things, most of which were issues also being handled by the AFAP.
Last edited by fmcinop; 31st Aug 2011 at 22:01.
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Most people are happy with the majority of the current VB EBA
You clearly must be in the BNE 737 bubble, I can assure you that the Majority of the EJET guys are not happy with the current EBA.
The drivel you are spinning appears to be nothing more than part of the AFAP's PR spin. Perhaps your on the payroll??
With 1200 flight crew in the group, 100 or so at Pac blue who cant be represented by an Aussie union and 28% of the entire group with no union representation.
With more than 500 members I know who has the majority of the group pilots onside and it aint the AFAP.............
Join Date: Jun 2007
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They may not be happy campdoag, but remember they also decided to join the company under that eba. It isn't like it was forced down their throats AFTER they joined on different t's and c's. The real point becomes who can do what for the NEXT eba, which is why there are quite a few of us who have membership of both at this stage. Certainly, whether I retain both will be decided by the outcome of the upcoming negotiations, and which team does what.
BTW, I'm not suggesting they should be happy, but you have no right to piss and moan when the eba is there for you to read BEFORE you sign on the dotted line.
BTW, I'm not suggesting they should be happy, but you have no right to piss and moan when the eba is there for you to read BEFORE you sign on the dotted line.
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They may not be happy campdoag, but remember they also decided to join the company under that eba. It isn't like it was forced down their throats AFTER they joined on different t's and c's.
That said, I won't dispute that there's nothing fair about the lottery that is new-hire fleet allocation. People with all levels of experience, who interviewed at the same time as each other, were allocated B737 or E-Jet for various reasons - & with a significant disparity in take-home pay. However, whilst I agree they got shafted, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment: airline recruitment has always been a lottery, & the same applies to fleet allocation regardless of which organisation. Why did a new QF S/O get the A380, whilst another got the B744 or A330? Back in the AN days, how come one person got a B737 & the other one a F50? Since back in the day, someone has always been miffed that "old mate" got assigned a better aeroplane with more $$$ than he/she did. Virgin is no different.
Even so, I would like to see better T's & C's for everyone, not just a select few.
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You are correct bungler, and I never said that it was fair. Those that wanted back, now are. Doesn't make up the lost cash though, of course. Had the pilot body and the afap been a little more careful with the fine print of the eba, then those drivers would not have had to go to the ejet. (Last on first off would have been exercised) However, as it was interpreted by the company, their choices were go to the ejet or exercise your democratic right to join the unemployed. Most did what was least harmful to their own interests. It is, and until we all stand united, will remain, luck of the draw. Doesn't change the general principle of "You sign it, you live with it".
P.S. Don't forget that even if they didn't want to go, those pilots got something from this company that no one else up to that time had ever received. A free type rating. So it isn't the complete bust that some would have you believe.
P.S. Don't forget that even if they didn't want to go, those pilots got something from this company that no one else up to that time had ever received. A free type rating. So it isn't the complete bust that some would have you believe.
Last edited by porch monkey; 1st Sep 2011 at 12:49.
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Porch monkey you are correct in saying that;
However the EBA is for a fixed term and is now set to expire on the 30th November. The vast majority of the EJET guys are unhappy with their pay and NOW IS the time (EBA negotiations) that they can bitch and moan about it!!!!
Nothing wrong with that!!!
Forget the past, lets move forward with better pay, conditions and clear progression for everyone!!!
they also decided to join the company under that eba. It isn't like it was forced down their throats
Nothing wrong with that!!!
Forget the past, lets move forward with better pay, conditions and clear progression for everyone!!!