Virgin drops below assigned altitude into Melbourne
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
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Clearly my point was missed.
Make fun of my mistake if you wish, I certainly was very dirty with myself because of it. Yes it could have been discussed in training - but it wasn't, yes the captain could have interjected - but he didn't. Thankfully however, my employer did not see fit to crucify me for this mistake as some on this post would have it.
Ideally, someone who is now in the same role I was then, reads this post and might even learn from my mistake. Possibly someone very similar to yourself Amos, who will never made a mistake of their own to learn from.
Make fun of my mistake if you wish, I certainly was very dirty with myself because of it. Yes it could have been discussed in training - but it wasn't, yes the captain could have interjected - but he didn't. Thankfully however, my employer did not see fit to crucify me for this mistake as some on this post would have it.
Ideally, someone who is now in the same role I was then, reads this post and might even learn from my mistake. Possibly someone very similar to yourself Amos, who will never made a mistake of their own to learn from.
Nunc est bibendum
Actually, I think we all got your point. Some people appear to be quite happy to accept that mistakes happen and don't seem to fully comprehend the significant difference in the acceptance that they happen and fighting tooth and nail to avoid them in the first place.
However, I don't think you realised you also made another point. Poor training and supervision means that errors will occur at times when they shouldn't. Fantastic that you're passing that lesson along but the system has failed if it allowed you to make that particular mistake in the first place. It's not like we haven't seen that error before.
However, I don't think you realised you also made another point. Poor training and supervision means that errors will occur at times when they shouldn't. Fantastic that you're passing that lesson along but the system has failed if it allowed you to make that particular mistake in the first place. It's not like we haven't seen that error before.
I think you'd be hard pressed finding anyone being a professional aviator who would suggest mistakes are OK and to should be tolerated.
The view I expressed way back at the start of this thread was that being human we make mistakes and there but for the grace of God go I, meaning that no matter how rigorous the training or robust the safety management system people still make mistakes.
Herein lies the problem. Firstly determining the motivating force behind the mistakes made, and secondly ensuring these errors (latent or active) do not occur again.
You will never stop errors being made where the intention has been to violate an SOP or regulatory requirement.
The introduction of SMS's, LOSA's, and behavioural marker systems can moderate deviant behaviour, however having said that it is still reactionary and cannot respond to the undesired behaviour till it is evident.
No pilot flies without making errors, they may be small in comparison to altitude breaches but nevertheless they are errors and Keg you are quite right in saying they should neither be tolerated nor promoted.
The view I expressed way back at the start of this thread was that being human we make mistakes and there but for the grace of God go I, meaning that no matter how rigorous the training or robust the safety management system people still make mistakes.
Herein lies the problem. Firstly determining the motivating force behind the mistakes made, and secondly ensuring these errors (latent or active) do not occur again.
You will never stop errors being made where the intention has been to violate an SOP or regulatory requirement.
The introduction of SMS's, LOSA's, and behavioural marker systems can moderate deviant behaviour, however having said that it is still reactionary and cannot respond to the undesired behaviour till it is evident.
No pilot flies without making errors, they may be small in comparison to altitude breaches but nevertheless they are errors and Keg you are quite right in saying they should neither be tolerated nor promoted.
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Yeah, well...unfortunately Greenie, you and your mate Snuffles are talking new age pilots nonsense!
Get into the real aviation world where you take responsibility for your own actions!
Have a quite chat on the side with Keg, listen and learn from him, 'cause quite frankly, I can't be bothered with either of you any more!!
Get into the real aviation world where you take responsibility for your own actions!
Have a quite chat on the side with Keg, listen and learn from him, 'cause quite frankly, I can't be bothered with either of you any more!!
Don't go Anus,
I'm dying to hear your pearls of wisdom. I'm still waiting for you to put forward something which would benefit this forum.
Enough of your inconclusive remarks, they only make you appear shallow and insecure.
Come on big fella, put on that thinking cap and come up with something original
Bueller.........Bueller.............. Bueller..................
I'm dying to hear your pearls of wisdom. I'm still waiting for you to put forward something which would benefit this forum.
Enough of your inconclusive remarks, they only make you appear shallow and insecure.
Come on big fella, put on that thinking cap and come up with something original
Bueller.........Bueller.............. Bueller..................
Join Date: May 2005
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Thanks for the advice Amos, I agree wholeheartedly. Keg provides some very useful wisdom which I take good note of. Seems like a wise operator. That said, I am very aware of the difference in the acceptance that errors happen and in fighting tooth and nail to avoid them in the first place. However, just because I do one does not mean I eliminate the other.
Though I do agree with you, my error - my fault (I certainly didn't put it on anyone else's shoulders), in general I find your posts useless for a fellow aviator.
But as you say, enough. Can't keep this up against such arrogance / ignorance.
Though I do agree with you, my error - my fault (I certainly didn't put it on anyone else's shoulders), in general I find your posts useless for a fellow aviator.
But as you say, enough. Can't keep this up against such arrogance / ignorance.
Keg,
Many thanks for the book reference. I had one of Tony Kern's original books "Flight Discipline".
Via Amazon, I purchased "Redefining Airmanship", "Blue Threat" and "Fate is the Hunter".
On a "separate" note:
We are human, we make mistakes. As professionals we need to minimise the mistakes we are going to make. How? Discipline, Awareness, Hard Work and maintaining a high standard.
Also we must foster and encourage the same awareness and attitudes in our fellow aviators.
Overall be safe and don't make a difficult job more difficult with holier than though attitudes.
Cheers
Servo
Many thanks for the book reference. I had one of Tony Kern's original books "Flight Discipline".
Via Amazon, I purchased "Redefining Airmanship", "Blue Threat" and "Fate is the Hunter".
On a "separate" note:
We are human, we make mistakes. As professionals we need to minimise the mistakes we are going to make. How? Discipline, Awareness, Hard Work and maintaining a high standard.
Also we must foster and encourage the same awareness and attitudes in our fellow aviators.
Overall be safe and don't make a difficult job more difficult with holier than though attitudes.
Cheers
Servo
