QF pilots offered J* MOU/other positions
From the Herald Sun article-
Buchanan "confirmed that Jetstar had updated an industrial agreement with the pilots union"
Can anyone in the Unions confirm or deny if the EBA and/or MOU has been "updated"?
"He said experienced Qantas pilots wishing to scale down their hours as they approached retirement would be welcome to apply"
BB must have got his + and - symbols mixed up on his calculator with respect to the hours flown (probably alot of other calculations as well).
Buchanan "confirmed that Jetstar had updated an industrial agreement with the pilots union"
Can anyone in the Unions confirm or deny if the EBA and/or MOU has been "updated"?
"He said experienced Qantas pilots wishing to scale down their hours as they approached retirement would be welcome to apply"
BB must have got his + and - symbols mixed up on his calculator with respect to the hours flown (probably alot of other calculations as well).
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Angryrat, excellent post . I hope you dont mind me disecting it a little;
Yep. I haven't seen a bunch or rats scurrying so hard in years ! And where is Wirthless, very quiet at the moment ? On annual leave or receiving a 3 week hair and make-up makeover in preparation for the August 24 ****storm ?
Agreed. These guys have started a war that will take major casualties on both sides, make no doubt about it. The timing is hilarious. A few year ago they would have possibly got away with overhauling the organisation and screwing workers, but that was then and this is now. People at all levels of society have had a gutful of corporate greed, especially since 2008, and we no longer find it morally, ethically or socially acceptable to let a handful of individuals load their pockets at the expense of trampling over tens of thousands of decent people.
Folks the only way to shove it back in managements faces and fight tooth, nail and claw is through 'strength in numbers'.
Agreed. But the pressure needs to be kept on, push them harder guys. Counteract with every available tool in the tool shed. If they want to spill some blood then lets take it to them. There is more than one way to skin a cat, remember that. Hit management in the pocket and it is like touching the pupil of their eye.
Indeed the cracks are opening. And indeed the shareholder should be very aware of what is at stake - their precious investments.
Are you, the shareholder, whether you are a ma and pa investor, employee, market dabbler of large finance firm prepared to remain sitting by as casual observers while this war escalates ? If you think the fight is onesided you ought to think again.
Now that is funny, poor old Ken. He would be crapping himself reading this thread as he would never have thought such an array of questions was humanly possible, let alone would he have even known that such 'gray' areas even existed. By now Ken would realise that even he needs to lube up his aft hold for the reaming that is coming, he too is just another employee liability.
Agreed. However, this would be viewed as a sweetner in managements mind, they would feel they have chalked up a win. Pilots aren't made redundant, still employed under MOU's within the group. We need to forenscially examine any propsal and if it is nothing short of a sham, smoke and mirrors or general excrement then throw it back at them and expose the folly.
This house of cards is about to come crashing down. The pressure is so high that the cracks are appearing everywhere.
BB's blaming of AIPA for everything was classic. He has met his match and is struggling to keep his head above water.
Folks the only way to shove it back in managements faces and fight tooth, nail and claw is through 'strength in numbers'.
AJ's position is untenable with the amount of union action going on and it will be all over red rover in September.
The board are copping it from the shareholders and there is a revolt on the way. Cracks, there are leaks springing everywhere.
Are you, the shareholder, whether you are a ma and pa investor, employee, market dabbler of large finance firm prepared to remain sitting by as casual observers while this war escalates ? If you think the fight is onesided you ought to think again.
Even Ken B. is distancing himself from the current management, after the J* Thai debacle, change of heart or saving his own backside?
This deal stinks and the timing is offensive!
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Worldwide Pilot Shortage ?
Jetstar are seeking to recruit an extra 150 pilots. Picture: Rob Baird Source: Herald Sun
JETSTAR is launching a campaign to recruit an extra 150 pilots for its rapidly expanding operations, clearing the way for dissatisfied Qantas pilots to transfer and Tiger's disgruntled counterparts to apply.
The budget carrier's chief executive Bruce Buchanan said the offer -- first reported in the Herald Sun yesterday -- was open to pilots worldwide but confirmed that Jetstar had updated an industrial agreement with the pilots union to allow smooth transfer from its parent Qantas.
The move comes as Tiger Airways looks set to get back into the air next week, with a Federal Court hearing yesterday put off as unnecessary, in agreement with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.
A formal announcement that Tiger has been cleared to fly after August 1 is likely within the next 72 hours, as the airline and CASA finalise reviewed pilot training procedures.
Tiger is expected to resume passenger services late next week.The move to recruit an extra 150 pilots for Jetstar in Australia, New Zealand and Asia comes in the midst of a worldwide shortage of pilots.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce confirmed the flag carrier bore an excess of about 80 positions among its 2700 pilots because it had not cut back pilots positions during the global financial crisis.
He was pleased to give individuals, particularly first officers, an opportunity to gain promotion at Jetstar.
Both airlines said the base pay for pilots -- around $110,000 for a Jetstar wide-bodied aircraft first officer and $190,000 for a captain -- were about equal and consistent with international standards.
Mr Buchanan said Jetstar needed flexibility on hours within its pilot workforce, due to seasonal variations in its holiday traffic.
He said experienced Qantas pilots wishing to scale down their hours as they approached retirement would be welcome to apply as Airbus A320 and A330 pilots, as would first officers and others seeking promotion.
The Australian and International Pilots Association, which approved the recent extension of the Qantas-Jetstar transfer arrangement as part of its enterprise agreement, was positive over the move.
JETSTAR is launching a campaign to recruit an extra 150 pilots for its rapidly expanding operations, clearing the way for dissatisfied Qantas pilots to transfer and Tiger's disgruntled counterparts to apply.
The budget carrier's chief executive Bruce Buchanan said the offer -- first reported in the Herald Sun yesterday -- was open to pilots worldwide but confirmed that Jetstar had updated an industrial agreement with the pilots union to allow smooth transfer from its parent Qantas.
The move comes as Tiger Airways looks set to get back into the air next week, with a Federal Court hearing yesterday put off as unnecessary, in agreement with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.
A formal announcement that Tiger has been cleared to fly after August 1 is likely within the next 72 hours, as the airline and CASA finalise reviewed pilot training procedures.
Tiger is expected to resume passenger services late next week.The move to recruit an extra 150 pilots for Jetstar in Australia, New Zealand and Asia comes in the midst of a worldwide shortage of pilots.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce confirmed the flag carrier bore an excess of about 80 positions among its 2700 pilots because it had not cut back pilots positions during the global financial crisis.
He was pleased to give individuals, particularly first officers, an opportunity to gain promotion at Jetstar.
Both airlines said the base pay for pilots -- around $110,000 for a Jetstar wide-bodied aircraft first officer and $190,000 for a captain -- were about equal and consistent with international standards.
Mr Buchanan said Jetstar needed flexibility on hours within its pilot workforce, due to seasonal variations in its holiday traffic.
He said experienced Qantas pilots wishing to scale down their hours as they approached retirement would be welcome to apply as Airbus A320 and A330 pilots, as would first officers and others seeking promotion.
The Australian and International Pilots Association, which approved the recent extension of the Qantas-Jetstar transfer arrangement as part of its enterprise agreement, was positive over the move.
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You've got management where you want them, don't give up now, make life really hard for them.
Do you really want to work for Jetstar and BB? Think about it.
Do you really want to work for Jetstar and BB? Think about it.
Last edited by lineupandwait; 29th Jul 2011 at 00:18.
short flights long nights
This whole thing stinks very badly,pornstar wants pilots qantas does not?Why dont they just do it..we all know what they want..shut Qantas down and call Jetstar "Qantas Lite" and then let the war begin.
Comments in the media saying "qantas captains can scale down their hours by joining Jetstar" highlights the fact that (yet again) the media has no idea what is going on, but I think they will very shortly when there is no Qantas.
My only problem with all of this is, what is AJs agenda? After he has destroyed the airline completley, and there is nothing left..what is in it for him...a large payout no doubt..but to be known as the man who destoyed Qantas, is any payout worth that?
I am sittinh here tonight a very very confused individual. (and as someone who went through 89 I dont confuse easily
)
Comments in the media saying "qantas captains can scale down their hours by joining Jetstar" highlights the fact that (yet again) the media has no idea what is going on, but I think they will very shortly when there is no Qantas.
My only problem with all of this is, what is AJs agenda? After he has destroyed the airline completley, and there is nothing left..what is in it for him...a large payout no doubt..but to be known as the man who destoyed Qantas, is any payout worth that?
I am sittinh here tonight a very very confused individual. (and as someone who went through 89 I dont confuse easily
)
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"qantas captains can scale down their hours by joining Jetstar"
Wouldnt this comment imply that QANTAS captains are more productive and therefore paid more than J*? So why is Q INT 'losing money" and not J*
The company message is more confusing by the day.
Wouldnt this comment imply that QANTAS captains are more productive and therefore paid more than J*? So why is Q INT 'losing money" and not J*
The company message is more confusing by the day.
The only way Qantas pilots are going to scale back their hours is if BB is hinting at part-time positions otherwise they will be doing 800hours+ a year. If BB thinks that LH Captains are going to join J* as some sort of semi-retirement job he's the one living in cloud cuckoo land. There have only been 15 commands advertised for OZ the rest are for overseas "Group" positions.
qantas captains can scale down their hours by joining Jetstar
Let me get this straight.
An overwhelming majority of LH pilots vote in the affirmative for PIA.
Pilots are striving for Qantas pilots on Qantas aircraft with Qantas T & C's.
Managements answer: Please fly for Jetstar on Jetstar T & C's.
Pure genius.....My letter of preference will be staying as is, thank you very much.
Those ivory towers are looking very shaky indeed.
The timing of this is the most intriguing part. LH pilots fearful of mass redundancies and are thrown this apparent life line. However I am under the impression that QF cannot make a pilot redundant if they are continuing to hire in other areas? If they make a pilot redundant and offer them one of these Jetstar positions, it will be on their current T & C's?
It stands to reason that anyone taking up one of these MOU positions will forego the FWA Act provisions and find themselves under the current Jetstar EBA.
An overwhelming majority of LH pilots vote in the affirmative for PIA.
Pilots are striving for Qantas pilots on Qantas aircraft with Qantas T & C's.
Managements answer: Please fly for Jetstar on Jetstar T & C's.
Pure genius.....My letter of preference will be staying as is, thank you very much.
Those ivory towers are looking very shaky indeed.
The timing of this is the most intriguing part. LH pilots fearful of mass redundancies and are thrown this apparent life line. However I am under the impression that QF cannot make a pilot redundant if they are continuing to hire in other areas? If they make a pilot redundant and offer them one of these Jetstar positions, it will be on their current T & C's?
It stands to reason that anyone taking up one of these MOU positions will forego the FWA Act provisions and find themselves under the current Jetstar EBA.
Last edited by 34R; 29th Jul 2011 at 01:54.
Personally, I think QF management don't want to lose the young QF guys off the bottom of the list, but under the LH contract, it's last on first off.
There will probably be a bunch of retirements in the next few years, so this must be some desperate ploy to get the oldtimers out of the way - but via J*???? I wouldn't work for that clown Buchanan no matter what you paid me!
There will probably be a bunch of retirements in the next few years, so this must be some desperate ploy to get the oldtimers out of the way - but via J*???? I wouldn't work for that clown Buchanan no matter what you paid me!
How does this all fit in with the FWA? They way I understand it if you are made redundant from Qantas you can't be re-employed within 3 months back onto a similar job being paid a lesser rate. The clause was brought in to stop companies closing and re-opening the next day with a new name and lesser terms and conditions. So if you get the boot from Q you can't then go to Jetstar? I know there was some kind of exemption given to allow pilots voluntarily leaving a high paid job to go to a lower paid job (Qlink to Jetstar) but I don't see that working in this example as you will have been made redundant.
Is this still the case?
Is this still the case?
Nunc est bibendum
AIPA gave QF the required three days notice of PIA by this one pilot. IIRC it was to activate three aspects of our PIA criteria- uniform contrary to the FAM, work to rule and not extending tours of duty. QF exercised their option of a 'lock out' against this pilot which they're entitled to do under the FWA provisions.
My assessment is that QF is playing games. They know that if AIPA enacted the 'no extensions' across the board that they can't stand us all down and they'd have to wear it. They're doing this with Steve because a, they can and b, it'll irritate AIPA and cost them money in flying Steve home and covering his pay.
However, it's important to point out that this is an irritation rather than the main game. It's like the weigh in before a title fight. Lots of trash talk, a bit of bravado. It's not the main game.
So why don't we enact this across the board? It's not yet time. This is a marathon, not a sprint. This is still the 'false war'. Sit on your hands, evaluate the situation, consider the options and THEN act.
Oops, didn't realise that I was contributing to the thread drift. See this thread for info relating to recent standing down of Captains.
My assessment is that QF is playing games. They know that if AIPA enacted the 'no extensions' across the board that they can't stand us all down and they'd have to wear it. They're doing this with Steve because a, they can and b, it'll irritate AIPA and cost them money in flying Steve home and covering his pay.
However, it's important to point out that this is an irritation rather than the main game. It's like the weigh in before a title fight. Lots of trash talk, a bit of bravado. It's not the main game.
So why don't we enact this across the board? It's not yet time. This is a marathon, not a sprint. This is still the 'false war'. Sit on your hands, evaluate the situation, consider the options and THEN act.
Oops, didn't realise that I was contributing to the thread drift. See this thread for info relating to recent standing down of Captains.
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MOU , yeah right .
Back on topic.
This is nothing more than a cynical industrial tactic, a desperate one at that......remember it was only a couple of weeks ago that they were promising LOA to go to Emirates......and while I'm on a roll, check out the 'Letters' in today's AFR.
This is nothing more than a cynical industrial tactic, a desperate one at that......remember it was only a couple of weeks ago that they were promising LOA to go to Emirates......and while I'm on a roll, check out the 'Letters' in today's AFR.
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Ek cost comparison
Not sure how the EK thread comparison relates - except as an argument for QF management to distort the competition cost base?
I think EK actually has 57 000 employees across the group, and 150 aircraft which makes it about 380 per jet. Not sure of industry standard - maybe QF guys could work that out and advise?
The only way you could afford that number of workers per ASK would have to be the average pay and conditions lower than other operators by a significant number.
These expat benefits are only paid to pilots, some engineers and management - not every one gets schooling, medical etc for free....if you are cabin crew and you get married for example you have to move out of company accommodation and enter the rental or purchasing market - which is a basket case on the money they provide for that in reality.
Pilots - much better off - but only 3000 of the 57 000.
AP is correct that they pay lots of other benefits,medical etc but the total employee cost is absorbed into the DXB economy.
If EK wanted to efficiently save money on these expat extras they would base pilots offshore. The same work would get done, it would reduce their cost base ( ie no .01 doctors per pilot to employ, .01 staff to administer them, house them etc)
The reason they don't is political, not cost based - highly paid pilots engineers etc spend money on cars , housing, maids, going out, shopping etc etc which fuels the economy of the place and goes straight to the locals pockets/government entities.
Example:
12 year B777 line captain , no kids at school but housing allowance and flight pay ( for 850 hours for the year ) = 1 million dhs pa= 250 000 AUD no tax. ( plus about 25 000 k pension fund money).
My buddies on the 380 as F/Os with QF tell me their gross group certificate is 230 k. p/a, with tax around 80k.
I assume QF long haul captain would be around 320 000 k pa from past posts, tax around 130k about right to say?
Therefore I think it is fair to say QF pilots cost their employers far more than EKs do, but probably have less take home pay due to the socialist taxation.
By what margin in percentage terms when related to ASKs I dont know.
Anyway, good luck with the AIPA action - try to keep the public on side, as that is where you will need support. WJA
I think EK actually has 57 000 employees across the group, and 150 aircraft which makes it about 380 per jet. Not sure of industry standard - maybe QF guys could work that out and advise?
The only way you could afford that number of workers per ASK would have to be the average pay and conditions lower than other operators by a significant number.
These expat benefits are only paid to pilots, some engineers and management - not every one gets schooling, medical etc for free....if you are cabin crew and you get married for example you have to move out of company accommodation and enter the rental or purchasing market - which is a basket case on the money they provide for that in reality.
Pilots - much better off - but only 3000 of the 57 000.
AP is correct that they pay lots of other benefits,medical etc but the total employee cost is absorbed into the DXB economy.
If EK wanted to efficiently save money on these expat extras they would base pilots offshore. The same work would get done, it would reduce their cost base ( ie no .01 doctors per pilot to employ, .01 staff to administer them, house them etc)
The reason they don't is political, not cost based - highly paid pilots engineers etc spend money on cars , housing, maids, going out, shopping etc etc which fuels the economy of the place and goes straight to the locals pockets/government entities.
Example:
12 year B777 line captain , no kids at school but housing allowance and flight pay ( for 850 hours for the year ) = 1 million dhs pa= 250 000 AUD no tax. ( plus about 25 000 k pension fund money).
My buddies on the 380 as F/Os with QF tell me their gross group certificate is 230 k. p/a, with tax around 80k.
I assume QF long haul captain would be around 320 000 k pa from past posts, tax around 130k about right to say?
Therefore I think it is fair to say QF pilots cost their employers far more than EKs do, but probably have less take home pay due to the socialist taxation.
By what margin in percentage terms when related to ASKs I dont know.
Anyway, good luck with the AIPA action - try to keep the public on side, as that is where you will need support. WJA
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I think EK actually has 57 000 employees across the group, and 150 aircraft which makes it about 380 per jet. Not sure of industry standard - maybe QF guys could work that out and advise?
Facts, interrupting rumors.. Sorry.
MOU SEQ positions
Interestingly once again there were no SEQ positions available to QF crew via the MOU.
Does anyone in JQ commute to SYD or MEL, waiting for a SEQ slot to come up?
Is it feasible to commute in JQ? Especially given the high hours they are flying at the moment.
Is there likely to be any extra positions at the SEQ base coming up in the near future?
Does anyone in JQ commute to SYD or MEL, waiting for a SEQ slot to come up?
Is it feasible to commute in JQ? Especially given the high hours they are flying at the moment.
Is there likely to be any extra positions at the SEQ base coming up in the near future?