Dick Smith "QF move to Asia".
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When the negotiating team ask Joyce's team "what do you need from us to make this work" and are met with blank stares, I suspect no matter how many efficiencies were offfered it would never be enough. He is out to sideline QF pilots regardless.
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Joyce wants QF pilots not only gone from QF, but gone from the industry.
He wants each pilot bankrupt and personally destroyed.
There is no deal to be done, as much as we want to do one.
QF could pay the current and future pilots nothing and the airline would still fail. Its too far gone.
A lot of wank and naivety on this thread
He wants each pilot bankrupt and personally destroyed.
There is no deal to be done, as much as we want to do one.
QF could pay the current and future pilots nothing and the airline would still fail. Its too far gone.
A lot of wank and naivety on this thread
I have been a constant (in both senses) Qantas passenger for over forty years. For the first time, I am really concerned that we will lose the company. I have in front of me now souvenirs from PanAm and Ansett that remind me that the unthinkable can happen. Quickly.
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If I were Allan Joyce...
Downsize the least cost effective quarter, pick a whole fleet, 767 or A330, move it offshore. Transfer that domestic work to JQ. Thats the easy part, what to do with the staff??? Offer leave without pay, offer voluntary redundancy, then bring out the axe.
He keeps the name, logo and valuable public repute while kicking his own goals. And the share holders will love him for it.
Not saying it's right, not saying he's wrong either, but it's a fair speculation considering the times.
Downsize the least cost effective quarter, pick a whole fleet, 767 or A330, move it offshore. Transfer that domestic work to JQ. Thats the easy part, what to do with the staff??? Offer leave without pay, offer voluntary redundancy, then bring out the axe.
He keeps the name, logo and valuable public repute while kicking his own goals. And the share holders will love him for it.
Not saying it's right, not saying he's wrong either, but it's a fair speculation considering the times.
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Transfer that domestic work to JQ.
He keeps the name, logo and valuable public repute
I think one of the main reasons QF staff are so pissed off with AJ is the trashing of the BRAND ... it used to be the absolute gold standard of airlines and Australian businesses ... now due to Jetstar, the lack of investment in the cabin product, the industrial relations sh!tstorm, etc etc, the Qantas name has been dragged thoroughly through the mud on AJ's watch. And the public aren't stupid they know JQ is Qantas-but-not. And they'll know it too if they see little "operated by Qantasia" stickers on the doors.
The image of "quality" has been absolutely gutted out of Qantas by all this stuff, that has done absolutely incalculable damage to Qantas imo. Doesn't show up on the short term bottom line so he doesn't care, he'll be out of there with his golden handshake in a couple of years. But long term, once people lose respect for a brand they used to love and value, then it doesn't matter WHERE in the world it's based, it's going to go downhill fast.
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The real issue here Luke is value for money when analyzing labour costs.
JQ and QF pilots perform identical duties but at a vastly different cost. Do you believe that JQ pilots are less proficient, less professional, less experienced and more scruffy looking? I grant the average operatioal experience level would be higher at QF but not the quantum gap you imagine. There are many old hands on deck at JQ.
What demonstrable hard data do you have to prove your extra value as a QF pilot? What data does Allan Joyce access? I would like to compare the FOQA data for the entire group. Ask your chief pilot for a copy for the last quarter?
When it comes to cabin service there can be no argument. Asian cabin crew work harder without 'attitude', smile more, weigh much less, look better in a dress and cost only a fraction.
I agree you are not living the dream Luke, you are living in a dream, and Mr Joyce is about to wake you up.
JQ and QF pilots perform identical duties but at a vastly different cost. Do you believe that JQ pilots are less proficient, less professional, less experienced and more scruffy looking? I grant the average operatioal experience level would be higher at QF but not the quantum gap you imagine. There are many old hands on deck at JQ.
What demonstrable hard data do you have to prove your extra value as a QF pilot? What data does Allan Joyce access? I would like to compare the FOQA data for the entire group. Ask your chief pilot for a copy for the last quarter?
When it comes to cabin service there can be no argument. Asian cabin crew work harder without 'attitude', smile more, weigh much less, look better in a dress and cost only a fraction.
I agree you are not living the dream Luke, you are living in a dream, and Mr Joyce is about to wake you up.
Dick Smith is merely stating the obvious. How many cars are made here these days vs. imports. Even Ford/Toyota/GM only do token manufacturing here because of high cost structures.
Dick is correct on how people vote with their wallets....
Chaps you will not win on protection only on productivity and SERVICE. Disrupting your loyal customers is not how to keep their support.
Dick is correct on how people vote with their wallets....
Chaps you will not win on protection only on productivity and SERVICE. Disrupting your loyal customers is not how to keep their support.
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Dream on Wally,
Granted Asian hosties look priddy damn good in their outfits.
BUT,
Fact #1 there are 4-5 MORE on a SQ A-380 vs QF A-380.
Fact #2 -"work harder".....mmmmm-where's your "demonstrable hard data" on this one Wally???
Fact #3- "smile more" -why wouldn't you when you are working for an outfit that treats their staff with respect and not total contempt!
Fact#4-"without attitude"-see above
Fact #5-"....cost only a fraction"..--great !! here we go again.... another economic rationalist. So this makes it all hunky dory does it ??? Rah Rah for the almighty dollar. Screw the aussie worker.
When you wake up from your slumber and find your kids can't get jobs,afford to buy a house/car & have no sense of purpose.
What then -send them off to work in Asia -where there are all the jobs we exported in the first place?
Your lack of logic (for a pilot) astounds me ????
And before you come back with.....if you don't like it LEAVE.
I am.
Hasta La Vista .....Baby
Granted Asian hosties look priddy damn good in their outfits.
BUT,
Fact #1 there are 4-5 MORE on a SQ A-380 vs QF A-380.
Fact #2 -"work harder".....mmmmm-where's your "demonstrable hard data" on this one Wally???
Fact #3- "smile more" -why wouldn't you when you are working for an outfit that treats their staff with respect and not total contempt!
Fact#4-"without attitude"-see above
Fact #5-"....cost only a fraction"..--great !! here we go again.... another economic rationalist. So this makes it all hunky dory does it ??? Rah Rah for the almighty dollar. Screw the aussie worker.
When you wake up from your slumber and find your kids can't get jobs,afford to buy a house/car & have no sense of purpose.
What then -send them off to work in Asia -where there are all the jobs we exported in the first place?
Your lack of logic (for a pilot) astounds me ????
And before you come back with.....if you don't like it LEAVE.
I am.
Hasta La Vista .....Baby
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Check my location Walter ... I've never worked for any QF airline, just an interested observer.
I don't disagree with you on pilot proficiency or value, or indeed on the superior sex appeal of asian women ... but that has absolutely nothing to do with the QF BRAND. Me and you know that JQ and QF pilots are equally good, skilful and professional operators but Joe Public does not. Joe Public thinks that QF pilots are all steely jawed superstars and low cost pilots must somehow not be good enough for the real thing. For example Jetstar has already had some collateral damage in the papers from this whole Tiger shutdown and the associated fallout. Qantas hasn't.
You think they would have made "Rain Man" featuring Jetstar? That is what QF has, or had, that made it special, not the pilots or anything else. And all this dilution of the core values of the brand, with Jetstar and Jetconnect and Qantas-asia, Dixon and Joyce have done nothing but confuse the public and devalue their most priceless asset.
Look at Virgin now, and ask yourself, when that started out, what did Branson bring to the table apart from the sheer value of the Virgin brand? Do you think that if the financial backers had been boring nameless industrial investors, that it would have caught the public imagination and taken off like it did?
Branson gets it, he's spent his whole life building this image of Virgin as sexy and desirable and high quality, and if he's ever found himself in a situation where the Virgin name or brand might get mixed up in something unsavoury he's gotten out of there fast. (i.e. Virgin Nigeria). Hell will freeze over before he buys or invests in a LCC, even though it probably would be more profitable than his current airline, because he knows the splash damage it would do to his core brand.
I don't disagree with you on pilot proficiency or value, or indeed on the superior sex appeal of asian women ... but that has absolutely nothing to do with the QF BRAND. Me and you know that JQ and QF pilots are equally good, skilful and professional operators but Joe Public does not. Joe Public thinks that QF pilots are all steely jawed superstars and low cost pilots must somehow not be good enough for the real thing. For example Jetstar has already had some collateral damage in the papers from this whole Tiger shutdown and the associated fallout. Qantas hasn't.
You think they would have made "Rain Man" featuring Jetstar? That is what QF has, or had, that made it special, not the pilots or anything else. And all this dilution of the core values of the brand, with Jetstar and Jetconnect and Qantas-asia, Dixon and Joyce have done nothing but confuse the public and devalue their most priceless asset.
Look at Virgin now, and ask yourself, when that started out, what did Branson bring to the table apart from the sheer value of the Virgin brand? Do you think that if the financial backers had been boring nameless industrial investors, that it would have caught the public imagination and taken off like it did?
Branson gets it, he's spent his whole life building this image of Virgin as sexy and desirable and high quality, and if he's ever found himself in a situation where the Virgin name or brand might get mixed up in something unsavoury he's gotten out of there fast. (i.e. Virgin Nigeria). Hell will freeze over before he buys or invests in a LCC, even though it probably would be more profitable than his current airline, because he knows the splash damage it would do to his core brand.
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Good luck on your new path Stubby.
#1 Even with extra crew they still cost a fraction, that actually sharpens my point.
#2. Having worked extensively with both, Asian crew consistently work harder
#3 & 4. But they are also treated poorly by management; but they manage to smile and enjoy the job?
#5 Your existence serves no purpose to your boss if you cannot sustain profit. Now that's a real fact.
Luke I'm betting Mr Joyce hopes to restore service and image with fresh youthful and enthusiastic cabin crew, but he cannot do it from here (OZ).
#1 Even with extra crew they still cost a fraction, that actually sharpens my point.
#2. Having worked extensively with both, Asian crew consistently work harder
#3 & 4. But they are also treated poorly by management; but they manage to smile and enjoy the job?
#5 Your existence serves no purpose to your boss if you cannot sustain profit. Now that's a real fact.
Luke I'm betting Mr Joyce hopes to restore service and image with fresh youthful and enthusiastic cabin crew, but he cannot do it from here (OZ).
Last edited by Walter E Kurtz; 16th Jul 2011 at 07:58. Reason: ( )
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Why do Australians keep complaining about being dudded by our governments
. Keating was all about "Globalisation" and destroying our industries then howard wanted to return the workers to 16th centuary conditions and slavery
. The present government wants to throw away our guns and take the world on with slingshots.
It seems to be an australian tradition that governments listen to the coach of the other team and expect australian companies to survive in the jungle. Never seen an australian government that looked after australians and a australias interists
.
GET USED TO IT
. Keating was all about "Globalisation" and destroying our industries then howard wanted to return the workers to 16th centuary conditions and slavery. The present government wants to throw away our guns and take the world on with slingshots.It seems to be an australian tradition that governments listen to the coach of the other team and expect australian companies to survive in the jungle. Never seen an australian government that looked after australians and a australias interists
.GET USED TO IT
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W.E Kurtz
You fail to understand basic economics.I doubt you are Australian
This economy of ours(Aust) is suffering from a general lack of confidence.
Spending is being curtailed and savings are increasing.
Deprive people of an adequate wage and they will spend less
Real estate prices fall as demand dries up;Less cars are bought,less children attend private schools,inventories build and investment declines.
This Qantas business stinks to high heaven and clowns like you pontificate from the sidelines.
We have learnt nothing from the GFC.Those that cause the problems escape while those that are victims of managment incompetence and arrogance pay a price of having their livelihoods off shored.
It is only through an accident of history that australians find themselves in proximity to Asia and its cheap labour and these areholes are going to take full advantage of that proximity and destroy one of the few icons that Australians can call their own.
When it fails...and fail it will...will they be held accountable ?...No!!!!
Joyce is not Australian and will feel no remorse when he heads back to Ireland with his ill gotten spoils
As for Dick Smith he is merely a small man of small intellect who craves attention and recognition.He needs the spotlight and makes ridiculous statements like this so that it shines on him.He has particpated little in this thread now that he sees he is regarded as a hypocritical tool.
Qantas is making a profit but is being put to death to be sold cheaply to others.The vultures of APA have not gone away .They have merely changed their appearance.
There is an agenda here and some decent investigative journalism will uncover it. There are a few here who seem to be on the right path.
Please keep up the great work
This economy of ours(Aust) is suffering from a general lack of confidence.
Spending is being curtailed and savings are increasing.
Deprive people of an adequate wage and they will spend less
Real estate prices fall as demand dries up;Less cars are bought,less children attend private schools,inventories build and investment declines.
This Qantas business stinks to high heaven and clowns like you pontificate from the sidelines.
We have learnt nothing from the GFC.Those that cause the problems escape while those that are victims of managment incompetence and arrogance pay a price of having their livelihoods off shored.
It is only through an accident of history that australians find themselves in proximity to Asia and its cheap labour and these areholes are going to take full advantage of that proximity and destroy one of the few icons that Australians can call their own.
When it fails...and fail it will...will they be held accountable ?...No!!!!
Joyce is not Australian and will feel no remorse when he heads back to Ireland with his ill gotten spoils
As for Dick Smith he is merely a small man of small intellect who craves attention and recognition.He needs the spotlight and makes ridiculous statements like this so that it shines on him.He has particpated little in this thread now that he sees he is regarded as a hypocritical tool.
Qantas is making a profit but is being put to death to be sold cheaply to others.The vultures of APA have not gone away .They have merely changed their appearance.
There is an agenda here and some decent investigative journalism will uncover it. There are a few here who seem to be on the right path.
Please keep up the great work
Last edited by surfside6; 16th Jul 2011 at 13:49.
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If as Surfside suggests
Concerned, committed employees would buy a controlling interest, change direction and make a tidy profit.
Hope your right.
Qantas is making a profit but is being put to death to be sold cheaply to others.
Concerned, committed employees would buy a controlling interest, change direction and make a tidy profit.
Hope your right.
Surfside I have been reading but not commenting -too frustrating.
Could I suggest you read post no 15 again and my answer to Jay Are re what needs to be done on post 17.
Surfside. Why do you have to be so personally nasty? Is it because anonymity gives you confidence?
I will say it again, if Qantas does not meet the Marketplace and compete it will go broke. Just like Pan Am ,Compass ,AWA and hundreds of others.
If I worked for Qantas I would make sure my Union facilitated the most productive processes possible. I would also have the comonsense to understand that it's got little to do with the personalities of the management,it's all about the difficulties of competing in a marketplace where the costs of many of the competitors are lower.
In this case you lower costs to compete or your customers abandon you.
It happens in every other field of business so why not in aviation.
Could I suggest you read post no 15 again and my answer to Jay Are re what needs to be done on post 17.
Surfside. Why do you have to be so personally nasty? Is it because anonymity gives you confidence?
I will say it again, if Qantas does not meet the Marketplace and compete it will go broke. Just like Pan Am ,Compass ,AWA and hundreds of others.
If I worked for Qantas I would make sure my Union facilitated the most productive processes possible. I would also have the comonsense to understand that it's got little to do with the personalities of the management,it's all about the difficulties of competing in a marketplace where the costs of many of the competitors are lower.
In this case you lower costs to compete or your customers abandon you.
It happens in every other field of business so why not in aviation.
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Qantas Can Be Competitive Dick.Without Offshoring
Firstly Dick let me apologize for my rant.Sometimes the line between passion and anger is blurred.However if you make comments regarding peoples livelihoods and financial security expect some flak.
Why did you choose this particular moment in time to make such inflammatory observations?
A few million bucks no doubt provides you a lot of confidence.You have no personal stake in this matter.If Qantas lives or dies matters not one jot to you.
You are known for proving quirky aviation commentary.The main reason the media pays you any attention
Without your public persona you would,like me, be just another anonymous boof head posting on PPrune attempting to have your voice heard.
Secondly if you read through the material in this forum you will find that the load factors QF currently enjoys should make it profitable.Indeed a little further research will illustrate that Qantas has been one of the most profitable airlines in the world for years.Off shoring jobs or setting up another franchise abroad will not change the situation.Jetstar franchises are yet to make a profit.Labour costs for the Qantas group run at around 18%.How much will the wages bill be reduced by off shoring employment? Two.three percent ?Hardly significant.
There is a lot of misinformation and disinformation floating around.
The truth needs to out
Mainline has languished for years though lack of investment in the product.The brand needs to be refreshed.
There is a catch 22 at work here.Mainline is supposedly a basket case.This has been caused by lack of investment.But Joyce wont spend any money on a segment of the business not returning its cost of capital.
The problem was caused by lack of capital and can only be fixed by capital investment.
We see a hell of a lot of Jetstar advertising and promotion but very little for Qantas
Again there is another agenda at work here
If customers abandon Qantas it is because of the poor quality of the product and the unsatisfactory route structure.
Where was Emirates 10 years ago?They have invested intelligently in aircraft type and route structure.Look at the results.
Build it and they will come has worked foer them
It has been said a million times...where are the 777s?
Why pull out of SFO when the load factors and yield were satisfactory?.
DFW satisfies no one except the bean counters and American Airlines
Why did you choose this particular moment in time to make such inflammatory observations?
A few million bucks no doubt provides you a lot of confidence.You have no personal stake in this matter.If Qantas lives or dies matters not one jot to you.
You are known for proving quirky aviation commentary.The main reason the media pays you any attention
Without your public persona you would,like me, be just another anonymous boof head posting on PPrune attempting to have your voice heard.
Secondly if you read through the material in this forum you will find that the load factors QF currently enjoys should make it profitable.Indeed a little further research will illustrate that Qantas has been one of the most profitable airlines in the world for years.Off shoring jobs or setting up another franchise abroad will not change the situation.Jetstar franchises are yet to make a profit.Labour costs for the Qantas group run at around 18%.How much will the wages bill be reduced by off shoring employment? Two.three percent ?Hardly significant.
There is a lot of misinformation and disinformation floating around.
The truth needs to out
Mainline has languished for years though lack of investment in the product.The brand needs to be refreshed.
There is a catch 22 at work here.Mainline is supposedly a basket case.This has been caused by lack of investment.But Joyce wont spend any money on a segment of the business not returning its cost of capital.
The problem was caused by lack of capital and can only be fixed by capital investment.
We see a hell of a lot of Jetstar advertising and promotion but very little for Qantas
Again there is another agenda at work here
If customers abandon Qantas it is because of the poor quality of the product and the unsatisfactory route structure.
Where was Emirates 10 years ago?They have invested intelligently in aircraft type and route structure.Look at the results.
Build it and they will come has worked foer them
It has been said a million times...where are the 777s?
Why pull out of SFO when the load factors and yield were satisfactory?.
DFW satisfies no one except the bean counters and American Airlines
Last edited by surfside6; 17th Jul 2011 at 02:20.
Surfside. I chose this moment because there are reports in the media stating that qantas pilots have decided to take industrial action in relation to job security.
This to me would be a bit like the the Engineering Designers at AWA moving to take industrial action for job security after the Whitlam government announced that in future all electronic consumer goods manufactures in Australia would have to compete on a level playing field with Asian manufacturers.
All that would have done is hasten the demise of AWA.
Load factors are important but this doesn't help in the ruthless marketplace if your prices are held lower than normal to get those load factors.
For Qantas International to stay in business it will have to give a viable return to investors. If competitors don't pay tax or have higher depreciation allowances it means that there is a triple whammy against Qantas. That is not only lower labor costs but also lower financing costs .
What I am bringing to public attention is that our Government needs to make a proper decision on this.
We no longer have a consumer electronics manufacturing industry because most voters want the cheaper prices from Asia and are happy to accept that there will be no jobs in this field.
Voters need to be informed that the same will happen to Qantas International if they want the lower fares of an open sky's policy with low cost countries such as China and India.
That is we won't have our own international airline at all or if we do it will be in name only with just about everyone being employed overseas on overseas rates.
What do you reckon voters would go for?
This to me would be a bit like the the Engineering Designers at AWA moving to take industrial action for job security after the Whitlam government announced that in future all electronic consumer goods manufactures in Australia would have to compete on a level playing field with Asian manufacturers.
All that would have done is hasten the demise of AWA.
Load factors are important but this doesn't help in the ruthless marketplace if your prices are held lower than normal to get those load factors.
For Qantas International to stay in business it will have to give a viable return to investors. If competitors don't pay tax or have higher depreciation allowances it means that there is a triple whammy against Qantas. That is not only lower labor costs but also lower financing costs .
What I am bringing to public attention is that our Government needs to make a proper decision on this.
We no longer have a consumer electronics manufacturing industry because most voters want the cheaper prices from Asia and are happy to accept that there will be no jobs in this field.
Voters need to be informed that the same will happen to Qantas International if they want the lower fares of an open sky's policy with low cost countries such as China and India.
That is we won't have our own international airline at all or if we do it will be in name only with just about everyone being employed overseas on overseas rates.
What do you reckon voters would go for?
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Dick Buys The Lies
You were somewhat selective in your response Dick.
The likelihood of Pilot PIA has been on the cards for months.
You need to look at the evidence regarding Qantas Mainline profitability.Something doesnt add up but you choose to ignore this and buy the "sky is falling spin"
Where does Jetstar get $500 mil to expand?.Who does its fuel hedging?
The money comes from somewhere.Jetstars cost of capital would be a lot higher than mainline
Big sister is diverting a lot of capital to its little brother.No wonder mainline is not investing money in its languishing product.
Cost cutting has reached critical mass where it has eroded the customer base
So offshoring is now the saviour.
Lobby the government and seek to change the aircraft depreciation schedule changed.
If and only if mainline is losing money then the responsibility for this must be sheeted home to management.Again the workforce pays the price for management incomptence.
Calling the pilots who have saved Qantas aircraft on more than one occasion "kamikazes' is repugnant.
Dick you need to do a whole lot more critical research before you start agreeing with the Qantas management solutions
The likelihood of Pilot PIA has been on the cards for months.
You need to look at the evidence regarding Qantas Mainline profitability.Something doesnt add up but you choose to ignore this and buy the "sky is falling spin"
Where does Jetstar get $500 mil to expand?.Who does its fuel hedging?
The money comes from somewhere.Jetstars cost of capital would be a lot higher than mainline
Big sister is diverting a lot of capital to its little brother.No wonder mainline is not investing money in its languishing product.
Cost cutting has reached critical mass where it has eroded the customer base
So offshoring is now the saviour.
Lobby the government and seek to change the aircraft depreciation schedule changed.
If and only if mainline is losing money then the responsibility for this must be sheeted home to management.Again the workforce pays the price for management incomptence.
Calling the pilots who have saved Qantas aircraft on more than one occasion "kamikazes' is repugnant.
Dick you need to do a whole lot more critical research before you start agreeing with the Qantas management solutions