Dick Smith "QF move to Asia".

[The The]

Singapore Airlines: AU$843.52
QANTAS: AU$937.84

Or jump on over to Jetstar. A quick look at their website has fares ranging from about $900 to $1800 economy, bonza eh!

For that they'll even let me carry me woolies enviro bag onboard. Tossing the bag in the hold, starts at $25. Like to prepay for a great meal (some curry thing) and some FF points (I must have like 1000 of them points by now), $60.
How about a video, $10 (what will I watch, Karate Kid or Wog Boy 2? LOL!!!). Hmmm, maybe a beer would be nice, $6 for a VB, better still, $8 for a bundy and coke! Mmmate, I'm gonna get $hit faced on this flight!

Getting hungry again, one of those kebab wrap things like you have up the cross at 4am, only $8, but hold the pesto (whatever that crap is?). No? Ok, I'll just wipe the pesto $hit off on the seat in front (good thing they are vinyl).

Uh oh, need a pi$$ after all that VB. Beudy, might just hang a slash down the aisle, seems like the done thing with this mob.

Look out, just chucked up the kebab, can I have some water, no wuzzas at $3.50.

All right!!!!, 16hr transit in Darwin, so I might just have enough time to duck out for a coupla durries and few more coldies!

Finally made it to Singa's, now where's a cab? I'm gettin straight over to Patpong, been hangin out to see those ping pong ball sheilas.

You'd have to be a real spanker to go full service, when you can get all this on Jetstar!!!!

[Roger that.]

600ft-lb. Well done Sir. After reading this site for sometime now, your words struck such a note with me I had to join up and tell you so. When you get into work to find you've got guys away on PCT training, saftey, quality, OHS meetings, SAFE projects, EBA meetings (because they've dragged out so long) and the same old guys are there with their hands on the spanners & then to be told I missed out on training because I dont get involved in enough projects, it makes me wanna hit something. All these escapes have been brought to us by the same people who didn't get us new aircarft, new route's, new idea.....Our bosses.

Mr Smith. I've got to ask. Joyce turns up on your front door of your new airline that you own wanting a job. You've got CEO, Pilot, LAME, F/A, Check-in, hangar cleaner and poo remover from toilet pump postions up for grabs. What would you give the man?

[gobbledock]

I have no intention on getting into any Dick bashing, but I would like Dick to clarify the below comment made by one of his business colleagues;

The problem I see at the present time is that most business colleagues I know consider that airlines like Emirates and Etihad are just as safe as Qantas and, in fact, claim to me that they have even newer aircraft and because of that they are safer.

Dick, do you subscribe to this point of view ? Do you also believe that if an airline operates 'newer' aircraft that makes them safer, in theory ?
If your answer is YES, then it is a good thing that you are no longer boss of CASA.
Besides, being the Director of CASA does not add any value to one's CV. Predominately CASA has been run by worthless bureaucrats, pilots who have aviator skills but no in-depth safety system skills, government whips and an assortment of lobbyists and other bottom dwellers.

[1a sound asleep]

The problem I see at the present time is that most business colleagues I know consider that airlines like Emirates and Etihad are just as safe as Qantas and, in fact, claim to me that they have even newer aircraft and because of that they are safer.

Dick, do you subscribe to this point of view ? Do you also believe that if an airline operates 'newer' aircraft that makes them safer, in theory ?

Problem is the average Joe in the street no longer sees QF as being the leader is safety. They read about RB211s dramas, mechanics using one hand to fix planes and of course the A380 accident. They see nice new planes, with better comforts, on airlines that are not bashed by the media at cheaper fares than QF on more direct routes.

Its not hard to see why QF is losing customers. QF is no longer the obvious/only choice to/from Australia - sorry that's reality.

[gobbledock]

Maybe QF has lost customers for this reason from early this year --Old 747 BNE/LA, crap seating, crap food, crap service, crap price, crap delay (both flights), crap onboard entertainment (U/S of course), disgusting onboard ****ters.........and on it goes. Never again.

[Luke SkyToddler]

If everything in every industry gets off shored a whole bunch of us will be unemployable. What do we do then? No jobs for garbos or checkout chicks anymore, they've been replaced by machines. Are us workers just unviable as a group? Should we march into the sea for the good of the country, or just sit around collecting the dole and voting Labor until the country goes broke, a la the UK? Every 'basic' job that is offshored is a basic job lost to an Australian, probably a dumb Australian but nonetheless a worker who supports him/herself and maybe a family. If it's not viable to employ Australians, then what is the viability of the country? Should we all move Back Home (because Home's doing so well at the moment, at least they've stopped throwing grenades this week )?

Kind of ironic isn't it. An economy that was essentially built over the last couple of centuries on the basis of less-fortunate unemployed European folk, migrating halfway round the world, just so they could get a job way out in the Australian boonies doing hard graft, farming or mining. That was the "globalization" of the 19th century and I'm sure people in Europe didn't rate it too highly then either.

Fast forward a couple of centuries and you're the victims of your own success. The primary-industry (and particularly mining) economy that those guys created, has been so incredibly successful that it's driven your dollar, your cost-of-living and your cost-of-doing-business to stupendously high levels. Everything in Australia has gotten really really expensive all of a sudden. That's why Dick is getting his aircraft maintenance done in Dubai, it's pretty much the root of the entire problem.

It isn't just QF, every employer who can get away with it, is typing "asian wages" into their currency converters at the moment, and slavering at the chops to export some of their costs to other cheaper economies. Especially ones like international airlines, who are seeing large parts of their income getting wiped out by these crazy exchange rates. It's obviously kind of hard for BHP to export a hole in the ground, but service industries like airlines are just about custom made for offshoring sadly.

You wouldn't have seen this 20 years ago when it was $0.50US to $1AU I'm sure. There's going to be nothing but massive pain for the normal aussie consumer and employer as long as those exchange rates stay so high, especially the ones who live in the east coast cities that are thousands of miles away from the boom.

On the bright side, at least in a few years once they've outsourced every single Aussie pilot's job to NZ / Asia, you can all move to Karratha and earn more working as unskilled labour on a building site than you were earning in your previous existence as a Jetstar F/O

[The Professor]

“The problem I see at the present time is that most business colleagues I know consider that airlines like Emirates and Etihad are just as safe as Qantas and….”

And this is a problem? It’s rather sad that you view the improvement in flight safety within the global industry as presenting a “problem” to one particular airline.


“….in fact, claim to me that they have even newer aircraft and because of that they are safer.”

They do indeed have newer aircraft and they may even be safer as a result. They are certainly more reliable.

“If we want to keep a majority of Australians employed by Qantas we will have to somehow convince people to pay more for their airfares with Qantas. I think this could be possible, but very difficult.”

And this is the statement that flies in the face of basic capitalist principles. Australia does operate as a market driven economy right? We all love the result of fierce competition in every other industry except for the one that employs us. Capitalism is great when it comes to cheap Nike’s and Ipods but please protect my job from market forces, please.

“They have no OH&S! They have no superannuation! They have no annoying unions! They will shut up and do what they are told! They are compliant!”

Yep. Which is why these emerging markets are going to leave us for dust. Do you think complaining is going to change they way they do business or are you going to strategize ways in which you can compete more effectively?

“I doubt that the average Chinese aviation worker is dropping AUD$60 a shop at the local Coles/Woolies for basic in season vegies, 3 star mince and econo bacon or over twenty grand in tax.”

Nope. Food and lodging in most parts of China are VERY cheap which is why employees can be paid significantly less than their counterparts in high cost countries such as Australia. If the business can dispense with high salaries that are required to cover high living costs then it will.

It is not realistic to expect QF to charge more for their service simply to support wages and benefits that are no longer globally competitive.

[faheel]

I really see this in simplistic terms.
The real problem for Qantas is the ****ty deal the have been dealt by the Australian Goverment.
They allow multiple middle eastern carriers to fly virtually unrestricted into Australia, they allow Emirates 5th freedom rights across the ditch at the expense to Qantas and Air New Zealand and what is the benefit for Qantas? absolutely nothing.
Do Qantas fly to Dubai, Qatar, Abu Dhabi?, they do not because there is virtually no market for those destinations.
The middle eastern carriers milk passengers from the Kangaroo route, take them to London with a stopover in Dubai where virtually no one gets off.
The really simple answer here is to stop the likes of Emirates flying here or severely restricting the number of pax they are allowed to uplift or, in Qantas's case flying to London via Dubai/Abu Dhabi/Qatar provided they are allowed 5th freedom rights on from the middle east.

Now this bit is said with a bit of tongue in cheek
They sell us their oil, get the dosh we pay for it, buy really nice aeroplanes, fly to oz,and get even more money from us by by flying us to all points west !

[Shark Patrol]

They sell us their oil, get the dosh we pay for it, buy really nice aeroplanes, fly to oz,and get even more money from us by by flying us to all points west !

I agree with you completely Faheel, but this is the capitalist Nirvana that The Professor drools over. And you did leave out the Prof's bit about their staff doing it on slave wages with no super, no pesky unions and no complaints. I just wish the Prof and Ken B would get out from under AJ's desk and f**k off to China, Vietnam or somewhere else without internet access.

The Professor would be happy for the Australian aviation industry to DIE because it suits his corproate ethos. Mind you Qantas would be already DEAD if scrotum-head had succeeded with the APA bid, plus it was the Coalition government that established the Open Skies arrangements so if Julia is given the boot, their will be no respite from the continuous pressure from government.

This industry sadly is rooted!!! Qantas pilots have no longer got anything to lose - hence the PIA result.

[teresa green]

SQ. Ok with you people that at 35 years of age, their female cabin crew are considered past it, not males only females, and are put out to pasture, regardless of whether they want to continue flying or not. Charming. THE THE. I must be one of the lucky ones on JQ which I fly often. Their Star class is excellent, it compares well with J class on many other carriers, in battery hen class its ok as far as I am concerned, I have yet to have a bad flight or come across bad cabin crew. As for bogans, Qantas had the monopoly on them for years, check out their bloody dreadful FunJets, Bali flights, Fiji flights, when smoking pot up the back was considered norm in the 80's. The only difference is the bogan is far more vicious now, and far less likely to receive any penalty for bad behaviour. JQ bashing is not going to help QF, never will, only QF can help QF, getting rid of Clifford and Joyce would be a good start.

[Air Ace]

There is something not quite right with Qantas claim that Qantas International is losing money and Jetstar is profitable – the facts don’t seem to stack up?

The 2010 Aviation Statistical Report. Page 26 gives Qantas international load factors: 82.8% outbound; 80.0% inbound, with the longest haul to the UK, Canada and Europe, virtually protected, high yield routes, around 86% load factor. If an airline can't make profits on 86% passenger load factors either it's tariff structure is critically flawed or it should not be in the game!

Jetstar international load factors: 76.8% outbound; 78.2% inbound. In theory, Jetstar costs are lower only in wages/salaries and possibly non operational overheads but their fuel costs, landing and airport fees etc must be comparable to Qantas, whilst Jetstar fares are lower per seat/kilometre, resulting in far lower revenue yields?

The Qantas outbound and inbound long haul load factors are well above the average and comparable to airlines with similar cost bases to Qantas (United, Air Canada, British Airways etc).

Is the Qantas international problem inventive accounting, poor route and schedule decisions and an ultimate plan to franchise the airline overseas, contrary to the Qantas Sale Act? I don’t understand why Qantas Board and management appear intent of destroying an Australian icon? There needs to be greater wage flexibility and a hard look at cost allocations within the Qantas Group, management and executive salaries and decisions.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Interesting, Air Ace.

...and a hard look at...management and executive salaries and decisions.

I'm sure they won't be offshoring or downgrading those for the good of the shareholders, despite the disparity between Australian and Asian exec salaries being similar to the disparity between worker wages.

[max1]

The answer is complicated. For a start, if we want to keep a majority of Australians employed by Qantas we will have to somehow convince people to pay more for their airfares with Qantas. I think this could be possible, but very difficult.

I don't mind paying a bit more if I thought that the money was going to support Australian workers. I buy my petrol at the Independent operators even though it is a bit more expensive as I know that money is supporting a small business. I have an issue in paying extra for a CEOs multi-million dollar bonus as he dismantles and shafts a company and its people.
During the drought a mate with a cattle and sheep property, told me of the farce that was being visited on consumers by the big supermarkets. He was destocking due to the drought, they were getting 3/5 of bugger all as it was a buyers market. The supermarkets were charging a motza and blaming it on the drought, and we city folk all bought it because it sounded like a reasonable and sensible argument.
It doesn't matter what reasonable steps the people who want to save Qantas take, the DNA of people like Clifford and Joyce will never be happy.
As far as Brian Grey at Compass, I know people who got burnt twice working at Compass, who said they would have gone back to work for him again as they liked the man that much.
That is a definition of leadership and success that you can't put a definitive dollar value on because it's priceless. The MBA numptys who have infested Australian management will never understand that.

[SMOC]

From one of dicks earlier posts...the communist chinese government restrict access to hKG to protect CX....Who do they restrict. was trying to think of who I HAVN't seen there. We have Qantas/Air New Zealand/Virgin Atlantic/British Airways/Emirates/Qatar/Singapore/Thai/United/Air Canada/Lufthansa/Air France/South African/ Air India/Aeroflot/ANA/Japan Airlines/Finnair/Phillapines/Etihad/Korean Airlines/KLM/Air pacific/Jetstar Asia?hong Kong Airlines and Express + all the local carriers. yep the chinese really have the reins on tight there don't they. If you dont have "less" on you have.......
The QF pilots dont aim for the dirt so why is the management.

And where do CX fly to? Every destination those airlines are based and usually with more frequency, except for Finnair and Air Pacific which I'm sure they probably codeshare with until CX decides to drop a 777-300ER in, plus they own Dragonair to take care of China.

CX has been cutting costs since the 90s, most LAMEs are no longer expats they're either HK Chinese or Philipino these days, we don't even see the LAME most times but there is an army of mechanics (you'd be hard pressed to call them an AME), if you ask them anything technical they get strait on the radio to call a LAME over. Our most junior cabin crew are on less than AUD$1,500 p/m.
CX no longer hire [pilots on expat conditions], engineers contracts are being renewed without expat terms. Take it or leave it is the usual treatment.

CX is run like Low cost airline, with the labour laws to allow it, that's one of the reasons they see no need to create a Jet* of their own. EK is probably similar.

CX has been fortunate with it's location, labour laws and being able to substantially cut it's most expensive manpower costs over the last 20yrs and continue to do so. Something QF has been unable to do other than create Jet*.

Out of curiosity what's the makeup of the ground engineers who meet each A/C for a turnaround ie how many total and how many are LAMEs. Plus how many A/C would you turn round during a shift? (8 hrs?).

Also what's the entry level pay for QF cabin crew?


[Correction: CX hire from overseas but on local conditions of service, up to 50% less than expat terms].

Old fella apologies, I worded that poorly, basically if you're on expat terms you are referred to as an expat and those days are over.

[low_earth_orbit]

shame on you Dick Smith

A lot of what is going on here at the moment with Qantas is posturing the public and political environment for the move of more of the company offshore - hence the Joyce speech to the National Press Club two months prior to the release of the final year results and the announcement of what will no doubt be a significant change in the 'group' strategy for Qantas mainline. So we're kept waiting and the board listen for public comment in the meantime to judge public and political sentiment.

It is unhelpful when someone with a public aviation and business profile such as Dick Smith to adds weight or even implicit support to the eventually flawed strategy that the Qantas CEO and the board are looking to pursue.

Such comments from Dick Smith are irresponsible, and even more mind-boggling when for so long he has claimed to be a champion of the cause of local businesses over the foreign owned entities and I for one will remember his words when I don't have a job anymore. He can troll out all the letters he has written and he can claim tacit support for Aussie jobs, but the headline he has created is all that matters - what I read and what the public reads is "Qantas should move to Asia or go broke". If he was fair dinkum about trying to level the aviation playing field with respect to foreign carriers and open skies he'd keep his public mouth shut and quietly talk to Julia and Albanese et al first.

[Old Fella]

CX no longer hires expatriate pilots?

SMOC Are you saying that this article is telling untruths regarding pilot recruitment?

Cathay Pacific response to locally employed pilots

This article states quite clearly that CX recruits overseas for expertise and experience, as it has done since inception.

[Air Ace]

low_earth_orbit

I think you missed the point - go back and read Dick Smith's post on the first page of this thread:

Would you really prefer that I don’t state the truth and just watch while Qantas goes broke? Surely not! I am the person who has consistently said that I am happy to pay more to fly with Qantas because I consider it safer – but I am a lone voice. In fact, I was attacked mercilessly by the industry, including pilots, when as Chairman of CASA I told people not to always fly with the cheapest airline.

The public judge an airline first on service, secondly safety. In years gone by Qantas was the first and often only choice for Australians travelling overseas. Qantas service is not what it used to be, the public perception of Qantas impeccable safety is sorely tested and Australia's Open Skies policies has introduced excessive choice and competition.

But read my post above, the claim that Qantas LH is unprofitable, versus Jetstar profitability, tests credibility, unless QF LH is burdened with excessive costs and less than ideal tariff, schedule, equipment and general management decisions.

[Kangaroo Court]

Dick Smith has it right this time. The government is not allowing our jobs to be done on a livable wage by opening up so much capacity from other countries, some that could barely afford to feed their own people 30 years ago.

[Black Stain]

Dick speaks truth. From a business perfective only (ignoring sentimental or moral argument) and under the current free trade rules that EK enjoys, the only part of Qantas that a thrifty CEO would want to keep is the name and logo.

I believe this restructure is going to deeply shock the QF pilot group. Wake up guys there is a tsunami coming straight at you. What are you going to do? Strike? I don't think so, that would most likely spin in Joyce's favor.

How can your pilot group work with this CEO to steer this restructure to a less painful end? Maybe you guys need a shock?

[Air Ace]

Yes, my choice of spelling is not always impeccable. Nor does your post contribute much of relevance to this thread?