Legalities of Pilot Strike Breakers
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Semantics maybe but you guys should be armed with as much info as possible before heading into battle. Prof is correct, your jets can easily be set up to be flown by anyone the company choses.
You are replaceable at very short notice. Tread carefully.
You are replaceable at very short notice. Tread carefully.
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Professor: wrong
AnQrKa: wrong
It's a lot more complicated than that.
Why have JQ just suspended their plans to do exactly that?
Not saying it can never happen, just saying it isn't as simple as that.
It's a lot easier to offshore it. That's why they are planning to offshore it. Get it?
AnQrKa: wrong
It's a lot more complicated than that.
Why have JQ just suspended their plans to do exactly that?
Not saying it can never happen, just saying it isn't as simple as that.
It's a lot easier to offshore it. That's why they are planning to offshore it. Get it?
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"Not saying it can never happen" . . . . therefore in the heat of battle . . it can.
No one is suggesting that it would not be "complicated".
As 89 demonstrated, ANYTHING can happen when the state and the coporatocracy work together.
No one is suggesting that it would not be "complicated".
As 89 demonstrated, ANYTHING can happen when the state and the coporatocracy work together.
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AnQrKa, yes, it CAN happen, that was proven in '89.
However, it probably would NOT have happened in '89 if the pilots didn't resign. Fatal error. Of course you can be replaced if you resign.
In the heat of battle, another fatal error could allow it to happen again. I don't disagree with that.
I was responding to your comments and the professor's implying that QF could just flick a switch and have the jets flown by a labour hire company and sack it's mainline pilots. They can't. Fair Work Act refers.
Look what just happened in JQ - a few emails and a quick application to the courts by the unions, and management suddenly realised they won't get away with it that easily. They are now probably spending many more millions on legal advice as we speak looking for more loopholes to exploit.
Qantas DO want to outsource all our labour to as many different labour-hire shell companies as they can - and have us compete with each other to the very bottom of the pit. They have made that quite clear.
It's our job to stop them - no-one else will. We're quite aware there are risks involved with PIA - many and varied risks. But we will manage those risks in a careful manner. So while we work, it would help if you didn't sit on the other side of the world and fire shots like that - especially inaccurate ones.
However, it probably would NOT have happened in '89 if the pilots didn't resign. Fatal error. Of course you can be replaced if you resign.
In the heat of battle, another fatal error could allow it to happen again. I don't disagree with that.
I was responding to your comments and the professor's implying that QF could just flick a switch and have the jets flown by a labour hire company and sack it's mainline pilots. They can't. Fair Work Act refers.
Look what just happened in JQ - a few emails and a quick application to the courts by the unions, and management suddenly realised they won't get away with it that easily. They are now probably spending many more millions on legal advice as we speak looking for more loopholes to exploit.
Qantas DO want to outsource all our labour to as many different labour-hire shell companies as they can - and have us compete with each other to the very bottom of the pit. They have made that quite clear.
It's our job to stop them - no-one else will. We're quite aware there are risks involved with PIA - many and varied risks. But we will manage those risks in a careful manner. So while we work, it would help if you didn't sit on the other side of the world and fire shots like that - especially inaccurate ones.
Whispering "T" Jet
However, it probably would NOT have happened in '89 if the pilots didn't resign. Fatal error. Of course you can be replaced if you resign.
QF pilots a awake up to this and anyway,replacement pilots will not be easy to get now as the tourist season is approaching in the northern hemisphere.
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Ok then
The point I was trying to make was specifically referenced to The Professor's statement that we do not even own our current flying. He implied that QF could get someone else to do it now if they wanted to. That isn't the case. We own it in as much as QF can't just sack us and make us do the same job on lesser terms. He suggests they can just set up a different contract and bring in others, but this doesn't get rid of us so doesn't help their cost base. The tactics they use in setting up different AOC's, offshoring to Jetconnect, Jetstar's SIN operation etc are workarounds to avoid Australian employment laws and transfer of business rules. They might achive the same result in the end but they wouldn't being taking this approach if it wasn't necessary.
3 Holer; It was an ambush and hence why we would only be taking Protected Industrial Action (It's still a long way from that and I hope we don't actually have to take that path, but if deemed necessary.....)
HF3000; Spot on.
3 Holer; It was an ambush and hence why we would only be taking Protected Industrial Action (It's still a long way from that and I hope we don't actually have to take that path, but if deemed necessary.....)
HF3000; Spot on.
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Don't presume that they will keep the same standards that currently apply to licence renewals etc. The bar will be lowered as far as deemed necessary. 
Last edited by fl610; 27th May 2011 at 08:12.
Reality check needed here, guys.
89/90 the Government heavied CASA to bend any rule which needed to be bent to make the thing work. A lot of this is a matter of public record and you should be able to find numerous examples in the Dunnunda archives.
If necessary, the current rules will be put on hold - they had a few close shaves in 89/90 but got away with it. That will be the catalyst for doing similar things, if necessary, this time around.
We were stupid - no doubt about that - why do you guys want to repeat our stupidity ? You're unlikely to enjoy the gameplay any more than we did.
89/90 the Government heavied CASA to bend any rule which needed to be bent to make the thing work. A lot of this is a matter of public record and you should be able to find numerous examples in the Dunnunda archives.
If necessary, the current rules will be put on hold - they had a few close shaves in 89/90 but got away with it. That will be the catalyst for doing similar things, if necessary, this time around.
We were stupid - no doubt about that - why do you guys want to repeat our stupidity ? You're unlikely to enjoy the gameplay any more than we did.
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One thing that I have not seen mentioned is the hundreds, maybe thousands of Australian Pilots currently working and residing overseas. And calling them replacement pilots, mmm, there is nothing to stop them being employed permanently and the current group being made redundant.
I know of a few in Emirates who are salivating at the thought of returning to Aus to see out their last few years in the comfort of well, Australia.
Every aircraft in the QF fleet could easily be crewed by Aussies, with Aussie licences living overseas. This is a very realistic scenario, they are aussies and are entitled to work for australian airlines. They all have the right to reside. They all have aussie licences, so no rule changes are required to lower standards.
Unlike 89, there is now a massive Aussie labor base available outside the country, Trained to the same standards, if not higher standards.
As most QF pilots know, they are extremely well paid by comparison to other airlines. The average Aussie pilot residing in the sandpit is on far less that the average QF pilot.
careful guys!
I know of a few in Emirates who are salivating at the thought of returning to Aus to see out their last few years in the comfort of well, Australia.
Every aircraft in the QF fleet could easily be crewed by Aussies, with Aussie licences living overseas. This is a very realistic scenario, they are aussies and are entitled to work for australian airlines. They all have the right to reside. They all have aussie licences, so no rule changes are required to lower standards.
Unlike 89, there is now a massive Aussie labor base available outside the country, Trained to the same standards, if not higher standards.
As most QF pilots know, they are extremely well paid by comparison to other airlines. The average Aussie pilot residing in the sandpit is on far less that the average QF pilot.
careful guys!
Last edited by dirtysidedown; 3rd Jun 2011 at 04:50.
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Well you would have to explain to me where FWA allows pilots to be made redundant and then others re-hired into the same jobs on less terms and conditions?
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I know more about the rules than you think.
QF pilots have a clause in their EBA which requires 6 months notice of redundancy. Since QF cannot make pilots redundant quickly then any attempt to recruit their replacements would be highly visible, and would result in a very public court case, which QF would lose under the FWA laws. You cannot make somebody redundant whilst actively recruiting their replacement.
You cannot be sacked whilst engaging in PIA, it is against the law.
Furthermore, making 1700 LH pilots redundant at once would cost QF hundreds of millions of dollars. The current redundancy provision would also mean that senior LH pilots, if made redundant out of LH, could displace more junior pilots on the SH award, consequently making them redundant. The cascading effect would shut down QF for months, destroying the share price and probably landing the Directors in a class action taken against them by the shareholders.
Have I read the rules son?
QF pilots have a clause in their EBA which requires 6 months notice of redundancy. Since QF cannot make pilots redundant quickly then any attempt to recruit their replacements would be highly visible, and would result in a very public court case, which QF would lose under the FWA laws. You cannot make somebody redundant whilst actively recruiting their replacement.
You cannot be sacked whilst engaging in PIA, it is against the law.
Furthermore, making 1700 LH pilots redundant at once would cost QF hundreds of millions of dollars. The current redundancy provision would also mean that senior LH pilots, if made redundant out of LH, could displace more junior pilots on the SH award, consequently making them redundant. The cascading effect would shut down QF for months, destroying the share price and probably landing the Directors in a class action taken against them by the shareholders.
Have I read the rules son?
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Thankyou for your exhaustive self inflating diatribe. You may know your EBA but you obviously don't know the rules. A couple of hundred million, in the scheme of things.....really?
I suppose you have to weigh up the costs. Perhaps a bankrupt Qantas is the desired outcome.
Jetstar is the viable airline, QF is a dinosaur that is not competitive on the world market. The Australian public has been systematically turned against QF by the media, which has been manipulated by management.
It is sometimes difficult to be objective Kremin when people like you are so emotionally involved. The senior management are not emotionally involved.
That is why they will win, you can't beat the boss. We lost before, and we will come out of this worse than now.
Wake up and see the reality of the situation.
Remember the boss writes the rules, and as before the australian public whose businesses and lives are to be disrupted by a bunch if elitists will once again turn on us.
Either way, we lose.
Sad but true, your obvious youth and passion is obvious, just don't take it personally when you lose.
I suppose you have to weigh up the costs. Perhaps a bankrupt Qantas is the desired outcome.
Jetstar is the viable airline, QF is a dinosaur that is not competitive on the world market. The Australian public has been systematically turned against QF by the media, which has been manipulated by management.
It is sometimes difficult to be objective Kremin when people like you are so emotionally involved. The senior management are not emotionally involved.
That is why they will win, you can't beat the boss. We lost before, and we will come out of this worse than now.
Wake up and see the reality of the situation.
Remember the boss writes the rules, and as before the australian public whose businesses and lives are to be disrupted by a bunch if elitists will once again turn on us.
Either way, we lose.
Sad but true, your obvious youth and passion is obvious, just don't take it personally when you lose.