BNE ATC Holding
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I've never worked anywhere were I've operated so close to MLW on such a consistent basis..and its often the limiting factor at the planning/dispatch stage.
Haughtney, the 777-300er will be landing weight limited on sectors of about 8-9hours, short intra gulf sectors unless your tankering will be zfw limited.
Haughtney, the 777-300er will be landing weight limited on sectors of about 8-9hours, short intra gulf sectors unless your tankering will be zfw limited.
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Sleeve.....ummm, since we are talking about BNE holding, thats the context of my comment, as for short sectors, I dont tend to do many..and hence MLW weight comment as going to Vegas, or MEL invariable means having gas for each other for "operational flexibility"
Anyway..back on subject..nothing to see here
Anyway..back on subject..nothing to see here
P-dubby. Agreed. But that does not help helo drivers (IFR), as you call up to get a slot time, response "no slot time needed", pilot response "but the weather is poo, can I get a slot time", response "no slot time needed for helo's".
Helo gets airborne, enroute to Brissy, helo pilot told "the weather is poo, do you have a slot time?", pilot response "no, told it wasn't required"..
Helo pilot now diverts to amberly to let down on the ILS and fly visual to parafield to pick up passengers due to 1 - 1.5 hr holding at brisbane..
That's but one scenario... Not having a go, but it would nice to be able to slot in to pick up your pax, even when the cloud is on the deck
Helo gets airborne, enroute to Brissy, helo pilot told "the weather is poo, do you have a slot time?", pilot response "no, told it wasn't required"..
Helo pilot now diverts to amberly to let down on the ILS and fly visual to parafield to pick up passengers due to 1 - 1.5 hr holding at brisbane..
That's but one scenario... Not having a go, but it would nice to be able to slot in to pick up your pax, even when the cloud is on the deck
Join Date: May 2002
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Not sure if I really answered your question. BTW - in this instance did you request your Slot time via the adjoining sector, or by telephone to the Flow?
P-dubby via telephone..
The problem that arises now is every time I need to go into Brisbane I call up via telephone to organise a slot time, and told it's not required for helo's. Weather looks like it could go either way at this stage, therefore pilot is told that a slot time will not be given.
It's one of those circular things, you can't get in without a slot time (in bad weather), but you aren't given a slot time because at the time of the phone call the weather looks OK, but then it turns to custard and you have no slot time even though you have tried to do everything you can in the right fashion.
In the particular instance that I mentioned earlier fortunately we were able to transfer the pax to archerfield by road and pick them up there. But I can see it posing a problem in the future with a similar scenario if weather comes in. ie back of the line as you don't have a slot time, even though you endeavoured to get one 'just in case'.
** I'd like to add, I'm not having a go at the controllers they're obviously doing their best with a crappy situation. I'm just passing along what can/does occur from a IFR helo operator level.
The problem that arises now is every time I need to go into Brisbane I call up via telephone to organise a slot time, and told it's not required for helo's. Weather looks like it could go either way at this stage, therefore pilot is told that a slot time will not be given.
It's one of those circular things, you can't get in without a slot time (in bad weather), but you aren't given a slot time because at the time of the phone call the weather looks OK, but then it turns to custard and you have no slot time even though you have tried to do everything you can in the right fashion.
In the particular instance that I mentioned earlier fortunately we were able to transfer the pax to archerfield by road and pick them up there. But I can see it posing a problem in the future with a similar scenario if weather comes in. ie back of the line as you don't have a slot time, even though you endeavoured to get one 'just in case'.
** I'd like to add, I'm not having a go at the controllers they're obviously doing their best with a crappy situation. I'm just passing along what can/does occur from a IFR helo operator level.
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Anyone want to take the bait about who answers the phone?
It would be "seamless and beneficial" no doubt.....
Join Date: May 2002
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Havick who are you ringing on the phone??????
Is it a high rise in the middle of Canberra that has two people on the nightshift because OH&S regs deem it is unsafe to have one person alone?
Or is it someone with operational experience at the airfield who can understand what your problem is ( i.e. not in a place a 1000km away where the CEO has come back from an OS trip and decided Australia should have one of those , staffed it with people who have bugger all operational experience but who can recite whatever corporate relations tell them to and still try to tell Qantas, Virgin, etc that everything is wonderful and there are no staff shortages??) and advise that you do actually need a slot time.
Dick.N.Cider and Roger, I believe we may be reading from the same book??
Is it a high rise in the middle of Canberra that has two people on the nightshift because OH&S regs deem it is unsafe to have one person alone?
Or is it someone with operational experience at the airfield who can understand what your problem is ( i.e. not in a place a 1000km away where the CEO has come back from an OS trip and decided Australia should have one of those , staffed it with people who have bugger all operational experience but who can recite whatever corporate relations tell them to and still try to tell Qantas, Virgin, etc that everything is wonderful and there are no staff shortages??) and advise that you do actually need a slot time.
Dick.N.Cider and Roger, I believe we may be reading from the same book??
Join Date: May 2002
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I'm having a 'robust' McClaren Vale Red but I may switch to Bundy to understand ARFOR.
Barring another desperate phone call tonight/tomorrow from my fully staffed employer I'll hope for an uninterrupted day off tomorrow. Fat chance.
Barring another desperate phone call tonight/tomorrow from my fully staffed employer I'll hope for an uninterrupted day off tomorrow. Fat chance.
max1, not sure if you're having a swipe at me... simply calling the number in the ersa as it directs you to for a slot time.
I'm not insinuating that my ops are more important than someone else.. in fact the opposite.. Merely suggesting that the practice that is in place is clearly not adequate if you can't even fly into a major airport and pick up some pax, even with trying to tick all the boxes.. It makes it difficult to guarantee any sort of service delivery if you're not sure whether you'll even manage to land at the airport (no crystal ball to look 2 - 3 weeks ahead at the weather for your arrival).
It's just getting harder and harder to get things done these days... I'm but one end user of the system.. we're all in this together.
I'm not insinuating that my ops are more important than someone else.. in fact the opposite.. Merely suggesting that the practice that is in place is clearly not adequate if you can't even fly into a major airport and pick up some pax, even with trying to tick all the boxes.. It makes it difficult to guarantee any sort of service delivery if you're not sure whether you'll even manage to land at the airport (no crystal ball to look 2 - 3 weeks ahead at the weather for your arrival).
It's just getting harder and harder to get things done these days... I'm but one end user of the system.. we're all in this together.
my previous posts are probably a thread drift anyway, the originator was talking about holding times into brisbane.. I'm talking about slot times (or lack of) which is a different topic..
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Max ... on the same side .... broadcasting the ... cold hard reality
Don't worry,
many are scratching their collective heads trying to find a justification for Australia's application of safety critical resources!?!?! .. 
Don't worry,
many are scratching their collective heads trying to find a justification for Australia's application of safety critical resources!?!?! ..
Thread Starter
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I admit to being quite impressed watching the QF 737-800 hit the gates within 10 seconds for an RNP approach. But if the guy in front or behind is out by a minute that precision has been for nought in the overall picture.
Join Date: May 2002
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havick, DEFINITELY NOT having a swipe at you.
From an operational ATC point of view, just wondering whether you are being funneled by ersa to the National Operations Centre in Canberra( Airservices Australias version of a Mumbai call centre spawned by the CEO) or actually talking to someone within a light year of actually helping you.
For those in the know, the NOC decided they would draft and implement ALOFT (Ats Long-range Optimum Flow Tool) this year off their own bat. Incidents, debacles, etc. They were advised,warned and finally ALOFT was cancelled.
The NOC cannot be seen to be a failure as the CEO has decreed it. Hazeltons RIP.
From an operational ATC point of view, just wondering whether you are being funneled by ersa to the National Operations Centre in Canberra( Airservices Australias version of a Mumbai call centre spawned by the CEO) or actually talking to someone within a light year of actually helping you.
For those in the know, the NOC decided they would draft and implement ALOFT (Ats Long-range Optimum Flow Tool) this year off their own bat. Incidents, debacles, etc. They were advised,warned and finally ALOFT was cancelled.
The NOC cannot be seen to be a failure as the CEO has decreed it. Hazeltons RIP.
I am not sure if anyone has ever rung them for a slot time - it would be interesting to know what they would say?
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EUROCONTROL - The CASSIS Flight Trials
Results of CASSIS trial at Arlanda of FMS for CTA OPS. You are correct that 1 minute is no where near accurate enough.
ATC generally use time to establish the sequence to a TMA volume at which point in trail distance is used, in general for high capacity OPS this is about +- 10 SEC accuracy.
Results of CASSIS trial at Arlanda of FMS for CTA OPS. You are correct that 1 minute is no where near accurate enough.
ATC generally use time to establish the sequence to a TMA volume at which point in trail distance is used, in general for high capacity OPS this is about +- 10 SEC accuracy.
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I have a few times.
Havick, sounds like you are an IFR charter op.
If you plan this way and call for a slot when TAF/TTF indicate that an instrument approach is required then you should be able to get one.
It's a PITA to fit you in to a busy sequence because of the time you will take to do the approach but I don't know any flow's who would knock you back because of that.
The problem happens when the weather is marginal and the tower assures the TMA that there should be no problems with a helo getting visual on lowest safe altitudes.
If the WX goes to shtt then you lose out.
I suggest a call or visit to the center in BN to explain your concerns and sort out a solution.
Sound like BN has gotten worse since I left there 2 1/2 years ago but I don't think my departure has had an effect on that.
Keep up the good work PD [congrats on your flow rating btw]
AA
If you plan this way and call for a slot when TAF/TTF indicate that an instrument approach is required then you should be able to get one.
It's a PITA to fit you in to a busy sequence because of the time you will take to do the approach but I don't know any flow's who would knock you back because of that.
The problem happens when the weather is marginal and the tower assures the TMA that there should be no problems with a helo getting visual on lowest safe altitudes.
If the WX goes to shtt then you lose out.
I suggest a call or visit to the center in BN to explain your concerns and sort out a solution.
Sound like BN has gotten worse since I left there 2 1/2 years ago but I don't think my departure has had an effect on that.
Keep up the good work PD [congrats on your flow rating btw]
AA
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It seems this thread is attempting to ascertiain why a more efficient system could or couldn't be implemented but most defendants are saying that this is the system, like it or lump it. I suspect we are all constrained by inflexible policy makers, be they computer system designers or beaurocrats or both.
If only real world pilots and controllers could regain charge maybe some practical, useful and efficient solutions might prevail.
I saw a pig fly once, but I may have been mistaken.
If only real world pilots and controllers could regain charge maybe some practical, useful and efficient solutions might prevail.
I saw a pig fly once, but I may have been mistaken.