BNE ATC Holding
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haughtney1 - can I assume you fly an Airbus heavy? I've seen 737's for example lose 10+ minutes from that sort of distance. Until we started using fix times, I didn't even know a jet could descend at less than 230kts!
The big two engine stretched boeing...if we tried to descend at anything less than about 260 kts at the weights we generally fly at....there would be all sorts of visits to various offices etc.
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haughtney1 - mouth washed 
. Hadn't thought about weight. A lot of our traffic is short out and back legs, so on arrival they must be as light as a thing thats quite light.
. Hadn't thought about weight. A lot of our traffic is short out and back legs, so on arrival they must be as light as a thing thats quite light.
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What a good idea...all aircraft give their "ESTIMATES".
Thanks for the "ESTIMATE!"
Let's plan the 200 aircraft around your "ESTIMATE".
Let's plan the 200 aircraft "ESTIMATES" around your "ESTIMATE" ,and lets plan YOUR "ESTIMATE" around the 200 aircraft "ESTIMATES."
And when you don't turn up on time...late px, tech prob, blah, blah...everyone screams..."ATC delays?"
Are you people for real???
I take my kids to school each morning and we stop at TRAFFIC LIGHTS!
BTW it's a two way street.
When WX is in aviation, it is a 1 way street!
Oh Bugger it...you should fly when you like, at what speed you like, at what height you like, in the direction that you like, and with no delays.
And apparently it won't delay other aircraft flying where they want, at what speed they want,at what height they want, what direction they want, with no delays.
What a bunch of fwits.
BTW, I want you to complain about that red light on the road to the Gov't.
KNOBS.
Towerboy.
1
Thanks for the "ESTIMATE!"
Let's plan the 200 aircraft around your "ESTIMATE".
Let's plan the 200 aircraft "ESTIMATES" around your "ESTIMATE" ,and lets plan YOUR "ESTIMATE" around the 200 aircraft "ESTIMATES."
And when you don't turn up on time...late px, tech prob, blah, blah...everyone screams..."ATC delays?"
Are you people for real???
I take my kids to school each morning and we stop at TRAFFIC LIGHTS!
BTW it's a two way street.
When WX is in aviation, it is a 1 way street!
Oh Bugger it...you should fly when you like, at what speed you like, at what height you like, in the direction that you like, and with no delays.
And apparently it won't delay other aircraft flying where they want, at what speed they want,at what height they want, what direction they want, with no delays.
What a bunch of fwits.
BTW, I want you to complain about that red light on the road to the Gov't.
KNOBS.
Towerboy.
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So, help me here... When advised:
"delay is required, speed reduction approved"
is a speed reduction going to potentially cost a place or two in the sequence and cause a longer delay, or has the sequence been locked in at this point?
Some pilots seem to believe it will cost them further delays to slow down. Some even speed up when they get told this, as they feel they may gain a place or two in the sequence.
"delay is required, speed reduction approved"
is a speed reduction going to potentially cost a place or two in the sequence and cause a longer delay, or has the sequence been locked in at this point?
Some pilots seem to believe it will cost them further delays to slow down. Some even speed up when they get told this, as they feel they may gain a place or two in the sequence.
Originally Posted by NB
Hadn't thought about weight. A lot of our traffic is short out and back legs, so on arrival they must be as light as a thing thats quite light.
HF3000, I can't provide a definitive answer but personally I use words to that effect when I've set your estimate in MAESTRO & I'm confident things won't change significantly (i.e. the other aircraft around you have largely been set as well). Once I've set you & told you to slow down I'm not going to touch the estimate in MAESTRO, so a change in speed won't change your delay, i.e no advantage or disadvantage.
Normally I'd tell you the expected delay if I didn't issue a fix time, but if I'm busy I might just tell you to slow down & get back to you when I can. It could also be an instruction passed on by another controller. For instance I'm in Melbourne & I'll see aircraft on the climb out of Adelaide. When delays are building I'll set the estimate early (it's a bit of a guess on climb but you get a good idea of performance on the day) & tell the 125.3 controller to slow you down. Usually I'd tell them the expected delay.
Only speaking for myself but those around me work in more or less the same way.
I think you'll find most controllers want you out of their airspace as quickly as possible (it makes life easier) so will do whatever they reasonably can to achieve it.
Normally I'd tell you the expected delay if I didn't issue a fix time, but if I'm busy I might just tell you to slow down & get back to you when I can. It could also be an instruction passed on by another controller. For instance I'm in Melbourne & I'll see aircraft on the climb out of Adelaide. When delays are building I'll set the estimate early (it's a bit of a guess on climb but you get a good idea of performance on the day) & tell the 125.3 controller to slow you down. Usually I'd tell them the expected delay.
Only speaking for myself but those around me work in more or less the same way.
I think you'll find most controllers want you out of their airspace as quickly as possible (it makes life easier) so will do whatever they reasonably can to achieve it.
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Capn Bloggs - the one that always sticks in my mind was an Emirates - PH flight that needed quite a few extra track miles on descent to get down to max landing weight. Can't remember if it was a boeing or 'bus though.
Would if be fair to assume then if the wx is bad and your carrying alternate/holding fuel your min speeds would be higher than if it was cavok, or does pax load make more difference?
Would if be fair to assume then if the wx is bad and your carrying alternate/holding fuel your min speeds would be higher than if it was cavok, or does pax load make more difference?
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Just to give some context Bloggs
At MLW, the 300ER has a Vref f30 of 149kts....so 3 or so tonnes either way that speed varies by a knot or so. So min clean lets say in round numbers is 230kts....we have a company requirement of maintaining a certain speed above min clean unless slowing down below 10000 and configuring, which just so happens to be between 255-260kts in most instances...so most guys I know use about 260kts above 10 as a low speed cutoff.
EK are quite good at filling aeroplanes up....I've never worked anywhere were I've operated so close to MLW on such a consistent basis..and its often the limiting factor at the planning/dispatch stage.
Apologies for the thread drift...I guess my point is, we find it hard to slow down and lose time without a bit of notice
Either Hauntney is always full of pax or his cripple 7 can't fly slow like the rest of us.
EK are quite good at filling aeroplanes up....I've never worked anywhere were I've operated so close to MLW on such a consistent basis..and its often the limiting factor at the planning/dispatch stage.
Apologies for the thread drift...I guess my point is, we find it hard to slow down and lose time without a bit of notice
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Getting back to the question of "delay is required, speed reduction approved", when you are bound for an airport served by MAESTRO (BN SY ML) this instruction should not be issued until such time as you are at least "stable" in the sequence. Stable means that the order, based upon natural estimates for the threshold (time at the feeder fix + time to go to runway in use) has been locked in. Speeding up at this stage simply gets you to the delay quicker. It's your call. The instruction is clearly optional. However if I say "reduce to minimum speed" I expect you to slow down and will base separation with other traffic on it.
At this stage, since the system "knows" the landing order, required delays are simply a the result of required runway spacing added to the preceding traffic estimate(s). MAESTRO never issues a go fast instruction. This is always the result of someone either helping on request, or the Flow trying to reduce delays to following traffic.
So why do delays change after you been given a time, or perhaps slowed down only to be sped up again? All the things you have to deal with in the air have an impact on the sequence. If preceding traffic can't maintain the required speed (say due turbulence) then everyone behind has to slow as well. If the Flow tries to reduce cumulative delays by changing one or more aircraft to another runway, then the whole sequence moves up and maybe increased speed is required. Note that generally hi speed descents will not be issued unless there is a traffic management advantage - your companies have made it quite clear they don't want them unless asked for. Sometimes even, whilst stable, changes happen. Med1, close in departures (that had a slot) etc. have an impact.
In the end, the only reason you get a delay is because there isn't runway available when you want it.
DNC
At this stage, since the system "knows" the landing order, required delays are simply a the result of required runway spacing added to the preceding traffic estimate(s). MAESTRO never issues a go fast instruction. This is always the result of someone either helping on request, or the Flow trying to reduce delays to following traffic.
So why do delays change after you been given a time, or perhaps slowed down only to be sped up again? All the things you have to deal with in the air have an impact on the sequence. If preceding traffic can't maintain the required speed (say due turbulence) then everyone behind has to slow as well. If the Flow tries to reduce cumulative delays by changing one or more aircraft to another runway, then the whole sequence moves up and maybe increased speed is required. Note that generally hi speed descents will not be issued unless there is a traffic management advantage - your companies have made it quite clear they don't want them unless asked for. Sometimes even, whilst stable, changes happen. Med1, close in departures (that had a slot) etc. have an impact.
In the end, the only reason you get a delay is because there isn't runway available when you want it.
DNC
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They have approval for a second parallel runway, and I recall a heap of flames in the local papers (I live in Coorparoo under at least one of the approaches when its not out over the bay)
I would imagine the heat and light is all gone now: they just have to find funding to build the damn thing.
I would imagine the heat and light is all gone now: they just have to find funding to build the damn thing.
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How difficult would it be for example to get the departure delayed out of AKL delayed for 8 minutes? Or does that go all the way back to the issue of flow control and ATM?
What do we do about ALL the traffic that departs AFTER the aircraft that slows down 3 hours out?
You are all talking about delays caused by:
The ridiculous airline scheduling that has not got a hope of succeeding.
Infrastructure delays that have not got a hope of being solved. During the great depression the US built the Hoover Dam amongst other things to create employment. What did Australia do during the GFC? Pink bats! What a great infrastructure initiative! Even killed a few people and burnt several houses down.
Political Delays, the moron who's in charge of transport is an airport noise campaigner! Do you think you are gunna get more runways at ANY airport in Australia? Badgerys Creek has been going for 30 odd years now?
Weather, you can't tell me where you are going or how many track miles you are going to add to your flight so how can I tell anyone behind you!! I thought one of the biggest whinges was slow down, speed up, slow down?
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I would imagine the heat and light is all gone now: they just have to find funding to build the damn thing.
...The trouble is that it takes years to build a runway, particularly when you've got a scrubby, pig infested swamp to start with. Clearing the ground and sandpumping alone will take ages, then you've got to let it settle, then you can start putting in the base (from memory, the existing 01/19 has a base more than six feet deep, multiply that by the 45m width and 3200m length) and then finally laying concrete/ashpalt. Then there are all the taxiways...
2018 rings a bell as the completion date, if nothing goes horribly wrong.
That's why the earlier comment about Melbourne not caring is a worry, because when all the planning approvals and NIMBY placation are factored in you have to allow twenty years or so to get a runway built. It's not something you can rush in to and whack down in a year once your traffic delays hit chaos levels.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 4th May 2011 at 00:08.
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Worrals
My dear...you really need to stop applying common sense. That is not how Governement and monopoly infrastructure organisations work. You should know better!
J
PS.......So do you go hunting for pork in your lunch break down there? Sounds like fun, with all those guns, knives and things confiscated by the security folk you should be well equipped!
My dear...you really need to stop applying common sense. That is not how Governement and monopoly infrastructure organisations work. You should know better!
J
PS.......So do you go hunting for pork in your lunch break down there? Sounds like fun, with all those guns, knives and things confiscated by the security folk you should be well equipped!
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One thing that I have not seen mentioned to here to prove it is an airline timetable problem is how much the holding has increased, both AM and PM since daylight savings ended down south. It changes everything!