Virgin skywest ties go deeper
Things have gone a little quiet on this subject in 'Prune land, but it seems there is plenty going on behind the scenes.
From my sources, it appears that the negotiating of T&C's for the new operation must have been a fairly low priority for management. The deal (Sywest/DJ tie up) has been done. The aircraft have been organised. The training sorted, along with a $27K cost to the new applicant for the ATR endorsement WTF!!!, and even a Cadetship announced in Canberra by El Duce'.
Management then sauter along to the pilot group and tells them how it will be...
To say the Skywest pilots were pissed off is probably an understatement. Once it became apparent that the pilot group would not stand for it, some furious "negotiating" then took place. These clowns (HR/management) really don't get it, or are they so used to seeing rollovers in this country that the smug little
's just thought it would be that easy!
SALPA/TWU put what they thought was fair. 10% extra, and full Skywest Terms and conditions. The company's response was pretty standard "That'll never happen", so the games began.
I have been told the negotiations are yet to be finalised, but here's where it's at so far
Hold out for what's fair boys and girls. You have the opportunity to be one of the few pilot groups in Australia to actually keep pace with airline expansion. July 2011 has already been decided by the powers to be, even though they initially didn't think enough of you all to include you in the process.
As for the reported $27K for the ATR endorsement, that info came from another source, but if true, Good God Almighty! No wonder they're talking about Cadets. The bottomless pit of all things exploitable. good luck with that one!
From my sources, it appears that the negotiating of T&C's for the new operation must have been a fairly low priority for management. The deal (Sywest/DJ tie up) has been done. The aircraft have been organised. The training sorted, along with a $27K cost to the new applicant for the ATR endorsement WTF!!!, and even a Cadetship announced in Canberra by El Duce'.
Management then sauter along to the pilot group and tells them how it will be...
- Fleet pay for the ATR/F50. ie: Same money to fly both types!
- New pilots employed on the ATR would not go onto the Skywest seniority list (divide and conquer)
- New pilots employed on th ATR would not be able to bid across to the WA operation
- Seperate employment contract!
To say the Skywest pilots were pissed off is probably an understatement. Once it became apparent that the pilot group would not stand for it, some furious "negotiating" then took place. These clowns (HR/management) really don't get it, or are they so used to seeing rollovers in this country that the smug little
's just thought it would be that easy!SALPA/TWU put what they thought was fair. 10% extra, and full Skywest Terms and conditions. The company's response was pretty standard "That'll never happen", so the games began.
I have been told the negotiations are yet to be finalised, but here's where it's at so far
- New hires will be employed under the Skywest collective Agreement including full seniority rights.
- Loss of bid rights for 30 months.
- Possible agreement with VB for a clearly defined career path into VB mainline. "Take that with a grain of salt!" (my bolding, and further more if it isn't signed sealed and delivered it's not worth the C02 it was expelled upon)
- Pay as per F50 rates + 5%
Hold out for what's fair boys and girls. You have the opportunity to be one of the few pilot groups in Australia to actually keep pace with airline expansion. July 2011 has already been decided by the powers to be, even though they initially didn't think enough of you all to include you in the process.
As for the reported $27K for the ATR endorsement, that info came from another source, but if true, Good God Almighty! No wonder they're talking about Cadets. The bottomless pit of all things exploitable. good luck with that one!
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 25th Mar 2011 at 05:15.
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I think someone is pulling your leg KRUSTY.
27k for a turboprop endorsement. No offence but that really is quite funny.
I see you are keenly interested in this tie up..
Hmmm
27k for a turboprop endorsement. No offence but that really is quite funny.
I see you are keenly interested in this tie up..
Hmmm
You're more than likely right Mr. Hat. As I said, an East Coast rumour, but time will tell on that one.
My interest really only applies to the continual down pressure on Pilot's Wages and Conditions. I've seen time and time again where operators introduce a new type, or expand the business, and expect their largest employee group to help foot the bill. That would be OK if we lived in a fair and equitable world with a reasonable and transparant exchange of mutual trust and respect! See where I'm going with this.
Suffice to say, I abhore people being taken advantage of while those pulling the strings smugly pocket their bonuses because an employee group has accepted less than what they are entitled to.
That's all.
My interest really only applies to the continual down pressure on Pilot's Wages and Conditions. I've seen time and time again where operators introduce a new type, or expand the business, and expect their largest employee group to help foot the bill. That would be OK if we lived in a fair and equitable world with a reasonable and transparant exchange of mutual trust and respect! See where I'm going with this.
Suffice to say, I abhore people being taken advantage of while those pulling the strings smugly pocket their bonuses because an employee group has accepted less than what they are entitled to.
That's all.
Skippers EBA here in Perth has the endorsement/training bond on the Braz and dash 8 at $25K or 2 years service.
I think that is for a command endo?? Anyone know???
So a bond for 27K on ATR endo??? Sound about right or not in comparison???
Other operators of F100 or BAe 146 types have a bond of about $30k and 2-3 yrs service for those types last I heard.
I think that is for a command endo?? Anyone know???
So a bond for 27K on ATR endo??? Sound about right or not in comparison???
Other operators of F100 or BAe 146 types have a bond of about $30k and 2-3 yrs service for those types last I heard.
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Remember guys the endorsement will be completed in a simulator and the cost to run a turboprop sim (ATR, Dash 8 etc) is no different to running a jet simulator as they are all boxes sitting on jacks. They all need power, sim instructors, sim techs to run them etc the only difference is the flight deck put inside the box.
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Hi folks.. Have been hearing some talk that several VB E-jet fo's are contemplating applying for ATR Command positions. Worries about the impending down turn and lack of command courses ( especially in Brisbane)for the foreseeable future etc....As many have previous Command Regional Airline experience, surely they would be perfect!!.. Any thoughts on this ??
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Management Rules
Folks,
What is there to stop the contracts on offer being outside the Skywest EBA?
My understanding is that Cobham hired people on common law contracts and Jetstar said it was going to employ the NZ cadets on Modern Award contracts, in both cases despite existing collective bargains. I would expect that Skywest could offer a new contract for this operation because it doesn't look like a Skywest operation and it is conveniently not a Virgin operation!
Is there a rule that says they have to employ people on the same terms as existing collective agreements or can they just do what they want?
Stay Alive,
What is there to stop the contracts on offer being outside the Skywest EBA?
My understanding is that Cobham hired people on common law contracts and Jetstar said it was going to employ the NZ cadets on Modern Award contracts, in both cases despite existing collective bargains. I would expect that Skywest could offer a new contract for this operation because it doesn't look like a Skywest operation and it is conveniently not a Virgin operation!
Is there a rule that says they have to employ people on the same terms as existing collective agreements or can they just do what they want?
Stay Alive,
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4 dogs
My understanding is this:
When an EBA is in place, the agreement provides that all people currently employed by the company at the effective date of the agreement and all new starts into the future of the EBA must be employed under the terms of that EBA. After all that is the purpose of having a collective agreement in the first place and that is what is envisaged by the Employment Legislation of this Country.
What Qantas, Jetstar and Cobham are all doing is suggesting that the EBA that is in force is restricted to one particular company (with an individual ABN) and have in all cases introduced a further legal entity, a 'sham' company if you like, which they believe are not bound to employ new employees on the EBA. The EBA is a legal document registered between the respective Union and a specific company although there are provisions that other company's will be covered by it.
The new Modern Award being offered to Cadets is being offered by a legal entity named 'Jetstar Group' and not Jetstar Airways Limited which is the signatory to the Jetstar Pilots Award 2008. The company are currently proceeding on the basis that they are correct and will continue to pursue this strategy until told by a court to stop. This is clearly not the intention of both of the parties to the agreement when it was executed.
If company's are allowed to set-up new entities and employ people in them to effectively set aside the EBA agreement then the whole of the provisions for the use of EBA's within the country's employment legislation will be in tatters
I hope this helps
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The Kelpie
My understanding is this:
When an EBA is in place, the agreement provides that all people currently employed by the company at the effective date of the agreement and all new starts into the future of the EBA must be employed under the terms of that EBA. After all that is the purpose of having a collective agreement in the first place and that is what is envisaged by the Employment Legislation of this Country.
What Qantas, Jetstar and Cobham are all doing is suggesting that the EBA that is in force is restricted to one particular company (with an individual ABN) and have in all cases introduced a further legal entity, a 'sham' company if you like, which they believe are not bound to employ new employees on the EBA. The EBA is a legal document registered between the respective Union and a specific company although there are provisions that other company's will be covered by it.
The new Modern Award being offered to Cadets is being offered by a legal entity named 'Jetstar Group' and not Jetstar Airways Limited which is the signatory to the Jetstar Pilots Award 2008. The company are currently proceeding on the basis that they are correct and will continue to pursue this strategy until told by a court to stop. This is clearly not the intention of both of the parties to the agreement when it was executed.
If company's are allowed to set-up new entities and employ people in them to effectively set aside the EBA agreement then the whole of the provisions for the use of EBA's within the country's employment legislation will be in tatters
I hope this helps
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The Kelpie
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4dogs
I noticed there is a specific line in the Skywest EBA thats states "any flying involving Skywest Airlines Pty Ltd.......shall be flown by Skywest pilots."
I noticed there is a specific line in the Skywest EBA thats states "any flying involving Skywest Airlines Pty Ltd.......shall be flown by Skywest pilots."
If they do the endorsements in Toulouse then $27k would be about the money but I would consider it unreasonable if they are to do the course internally.
Where are the aircraft coming from?
I assume Mt Cook will do the T&C? Which would mean Kiwi rules apply
Where are the aircraft coming from?
I assume Mt Cook will do the T&C? Which would mean Kiwi rules apply
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Just heard from a source at Easterns that there's an EOI sent out for Q400's drivers to move to Perth?
Anyone else heard similar?
A reaction to Skywests iminent arrival of their ATR's?
Anyone else heard similar?
A reaction to Skywests iminent arrival of their ATR's?
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Skywest ATR interviews being held in Melbourne today..Accepting DEC without endorsement and they will be bonded. 100+ on offer with Brisbane base at this stage..Will know more on this shortly.
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Skywest ATR DEC Interviews were held today and will be for a further two days it seems. Pay is close to 105k for a Captain (not endorsement daah) and overtime starts from 59 flying hrs a month. 12 month bond of $12000 for the endorsement. Hope that is a little more clear.(definately non endorsed guys at this stage as well). Cheers LOO