Another Jetstar Whistleblower
Sir donald,
You have made the common pprune mistake of ASSuming that I have chosen a line of argument to fit my personal agenda.
I am not a Jetstar cadet applicant, far from it. In fact my only agenda in aviation is to exit stage left as soon as financially possible.
But shooting the breeze with low brow thinkers like you keeps me entertained on night stops.
So can you enlighten me - what exactly DO YOU think this debate is all about?
Safety? Or maintaining the good ol boys club?
Over to you.
You have made the common pprune mistake of ASSuming that I have chosen a line of argument to fit my personal agenda.
I am not a Jetstar cadet applicant, far from it. In fact my only agenda in aviation is to exit stage left as soon as financially possible.
But shooting the breeze with low brow thinkers like you keeps me entertained on night stops.
So can you enlighten me - what exactly DO YOU think this debate is all about?
Safety? Or maintaining the good ol boys club?
Over to you.
Join Date: Dec 2010
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As for the Buffalo crash and the fact that the pilots had slept in crew rooms and had been awake for X number of hours. How many Emirates pilots would like to live in Australia and still fly for Emirates. I bet a lot. But the job is in Dubai, not Australia. If you want the job, then move there.
A mate of mine in the US qualified for social security while he was a Dash8 F/O for a major carrier. He got a LHS on CRJ fairly quickly but then got based in a city he couldn't afford to move his family to. After the second hull loss in the company due to pilot error he just walked away in fear of his life. Luckily his family had some money to help him do this and he scored a better gig. But he left behind thousands of people who can't get out (due training debt) and cant get an upgrade either due to industry downturn. These people can't give their job 100% because they spend most of their effort just surviving and working out how to feed their families. A great state of mind to be operating aircraft - not.
Fridge magnet gets it - its the totality of the pilots environment.
Individually, nothing is really illegal or substandard, however when you look at the Colgan crash, you see the totality:
Poorly paid, overworked, under-trained, wage slaves trying to make ends meet in a sick, cost cutting, corporate culture.
Read the transcript and weep.
Individually, nothing is really illegal or substandard, however when you look at the Colgan crash, you see the totality:
Poorly paid, overworked, under-trained, wage slaves trying to make ends meet in a sick, cost cutting, corporate culture.
Read the transcript and weep.
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For F%^K Sake, cry me a river fridge magnet.
If you can`t afford to live on the salary the job pays, then you can`t afford the job.
Or is it somehow different over there where it is okay to work for sub standard pay and conditions, but in Australia it is not? Apparently our pay and conditions aren`t that bad as I am continually reminded here. Enough of you keep reminding us about all the better jobs out there compared to Jet*.
Explain to me the difference.
Did you ever work more than one job to pay the bills?
Did you ever move for a job?
Have you ever lived somewhere you didn`t want to for a job?
I can gaurantee half the wives and girlfriends I meet in Darwin aren`t real happy living up here, but do so for there partners career.
But again, that would be somehow different as well,
If you can`t afford to live on the salary the job pays, then you can`t afford the job.
Or is it somehow different over there where it is okay to work for sub standard pay and conditions, but in Australia it is not? Apparently our pay and conditions aren`t that bad as I am continually reminded here. Enough of you keep reminding us about all the better jobs out there compared to Jet*.
Explain to me the difference.
Did you ever work more than one job to pay the bills?
Did you ever move for a job?
Have you ever lived somewhere you didn`t want to for a job?
I can gaurantee half the wives and girlfriends I meet in Darwin aren`t real happy living up here, but do so for there partners career.
But again, that would be somehow different as well,
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Metro, wont catch me crying. I did all those things you asked in the eighties and got into QF as a result.
What I'm not impressed about is looming mistakes being made during industrial trasformation within the Australian industry. The US sets an example of where it is not worthwhile going. I have nothing against economic reform but have no faith that our bosses know what they are doing.
What I'm not impressed about is looming mistakes being made during industrial trasformation within the Australian industry. The US sets an example of where it is not worthwhile going. I have nothing against economic reform but have no faith that our bosses know what they are doing.
Race To The Bottom
Approximately 8 or so years ago when this pay for endorsement stuff started, I came on Prune very vocally and said it was the beginning of the end.
I stated we needed to stick together, encouraged mass union support and tried to make it clear that the airlines would be the only winners.
I was ridiculed by scabs (who were jumping the experience queue buying jobs at J* and Virgin) as an idealist who was letting the world pass me by.
Now I listen to those same people complain about cadets paying for training.
We have no-one else to blame than ourselves.
The airlines wanted to screw our conditions, and we stood by and watched.
I stated we needed to stick together, encouraged mass union support and tried to make it clear that the airlines would be the only winners.
I was ridiculed by scabs (who were jumping the experience queue buying jobs at J* and Virgin) as an idealist who was letting the world pass me by.
Now I listen to those same people complain about cadets paying for training.
We have no-one else to blame than ourselves.
The airlines wanted to screw our conditions, and we stood by and watched.
Jetstar management are running an experiment.
How low can we go with experience levels and therefore pay and conditions and still operate aircraft "safely".
There is only ONE PERSON who will carry the responsibility for any broken aircraft, injured passengers or cabin crew and that is the PILOT IN COMMAND.
If a cadet rounds out late and bounces it down the runway breaking the aircraft and causing injuries, the PIC will be asked why he or she did not take over.
CAR 224
2. The pilot in command is responsible for;
(b) The operation and the safety of the aircraft during flight time; and
(c) The safety of persons and cargo carried on the aircraft; and
(d) The conduct and safety of members of the crew on the aircraft.
So although it could be argued that airline management run the risk of tarnishing their brand with an accident, the reality is that the PIC carries most of the responsibility by law. Garuda killed plenty of Australians at Yogjakarta but they seem to have no problem filling their aircraft with happy holidaymakers on their way to Bali.
The PIC on flights with low time cadet FOs will carry a huge responsibility. If this is managed well, ie well trained supervisory Captains then it will work for them and aviation will head down the road of the maritime industry. Low paid foreign workers and low paid local cadets trying to escape to something better. Ships of shame and flags of convenience. Bruce has already announced asian crews are wanted for their operations.
How low can we go with experience levels and therefore pay and conditions and still operate aircraft "safely".
There is only ONE PERSON who will carry the responsibility for any broken aircraft, injured passengers or cabin crew and that is the PILOT IN COMMAND.
If a cadet rounds out late and bounces it down the runway breaking the aircraft and causing injuries, the PIC will be asked why he or she did not take over.
CAR 224
2. The pilot in command is responsible for;
(b) The operation and the safety of the aircraft during flight time; and
(c) The safety of persons and cargo carried on the aircraft; and
(d) The conduct and safety of members of the crew on the aircraft.
So although it could be argued that airline management run the risk of tarnishing their brand with an accident, the reality is that the PIC carries most of the responsibility by law. Garuda killed plenty of Australians at Yogjakarta but they seem to have no problem filling their aircraft with happy holidaymakers on their way to Bali.
The PIC on flights with low time cadet FOs will carry a huge responsibility. If this is managed well, ie well trained supervisory Captains then it will work for them and aviation will head down the road of the maritime industry. Low paid foreign workers and low paid local cadets trying to escape to something better. Ships of shame and flags of convenience. Bruce has already announced asian crews are wanted for their operations.
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oh well, at the end of the day, its called reaping what one sows......the Impulse guys started it, they know it, they are the top 100 or so guys at Jetstar....they and the other guys now have to live with it...they paid for their initial rating on turboprops in the 90's, then flew 717's, then A320's on the cheap, then they vote yes to EBA's when everybody else votes no.....they have no qualms undercutting mainline guys or anybody else to do it..
Another thing, why join Jetstar, knowing what they are like, and then 12 months later start whinging about how pathetic and cheap they are?....no offence, but no point being a whistleblower if only 12 or so months before you signed a contract to be a pilot with them...it's like the new girlfriend trying to tame the wild boyfriend..its only going to end in tears.......
Another thing, why join Jetstar, knowing what they are like, and then 12 months later start whinging about how pathetic and cheap they are?....no offence, but no point being a whistleblower if only 12 or so months before you signed a contract to be a pilot with them...it's like the new girlfriend trying to tame the wild boyfriend..its only going to end in tears.......
Whispering "T" Jet
Approximately 8 or so years ago when this pay for endorsement stuff started, I came on Prune very vocally and said it was the beginning of the end.........................................
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Sand Dune Same
That is the most pathetic, puerile, self centred piece of drivel I have ever read on Prune and let me tell you, you beat some pretty significant competition to get to the top of the heap.
Qantas pilots left the AFAP 30 years back to look after themselves. They repeated the "me first" exercise in 1989. They repeated it again by shutting out Impulse (also Air Express, Jet Connect etc) when it was wholly owned by QF and they steadfastly refused to ever build the wherewithal emotionally and industrially to get a scope clause and ensure that any pilot working for the Group had the chance to qualify on any type according to Group seniority. Then they, the mainline AIPA puppets come on these forums and bleat that non-mainline pilots should fight to the last drop of their blood and give up the right to ever fly shiny jets just to keep the mainline EBA in its inflated, featherbedded secure cocoon.
I am astounded at your audacity, staggered by your lack of humility, appalled by your ignorance and stunned by your selfishness.
That is the most pathetic, puerile, self centred piece of drivel I have ever read on Prune and let me tell you, you beat some pretty significant competition to get to the top of the heap.
Qantas pilots left the AFAP 30 years back to look after themselves. They repeated the "me first" exercise in 1989. They repeated it again by shutting out Impulse (also Air Express, Jet Connect etc) when it was wholly owned by QF and they steadfastly refused to ever build the wherewithal emotionally and industrially to get a scope clause and ensure that any pilot working for the Group had the chance to qualify on any type according to Group seniority. Then they, the mainline AIPA puppets come on these forums and bleat that non-mainline pilots should fight to the last drop of their blood and give up the right to ever fly shiny jets just to keep the mainline EBA in its inflated, featherbedded secure cocoon.
I am astounded at your audacity, staggered by your lack of humility, appalled by your ignorance and stunned by your selfishness.
That is the most pathetic, puerile, self centred piece of drivel I have ever read on Prune
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OK....here's a genuine offer.
$1000 to your favourite charity and I promise never to post on Prune again if someone will explain to me concisely, carefully and in practical terms:
1. what exactly should a pilot have done, years back, or even now, when the only job offered in Australia WASN'T with Qantas mainline and there was no prospect of ever being hired by a "full service-high wage" carrier.
and.....
2. If my final years salary as a domestic jet captain in 1989 was indexed to inflation I would think it would by now be something similar to the salary of a senior Qantas S/O. Why is it so?
Serious answers only....on another thread if need be.
$1000 to your favourite charity and I promise never to post on Prune again if someone will explain to me concisely, carefully and in practical terms:
1. what exactly should a pilot have done, years back, or even now, when the only job offered in Australia WASN'T with Qantas mainline and there was no prospect of ever being hired by a "full service-high wage" carrier.
and.....
2. If my final years salary as a domestic jet captain in 1989 was indexed to inflation I would think it would by now be something similar to the salary of a senior Qantas S/O. Why is it so?
Serious answers only....on another thread if need be.
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1. what exactly should a pilot have done, years back, or even now, when the only job offered in Australia WASN'T with Qantas mainline and there was no prospect of ever being hired by a "full service-high wage" carrier.
How many hundreds of pilots do you reckon there are that stuck it out during these times, built experience, waited their turn and made it into mainline? I know a few of these as well.
Answer? Don't pay for endorsements at any level, give your employer a return of service or pay for the endorsement when you leave early. Wait your 'turn'
Don't buy yourself a jet job.
Some of you lot are pretty thick, you think it's the way of the world. You need to get out a little and see what employers pay for these days.
Nunc est bibendum
If my final years salary as a domestic jet captain in 1989 was indexed to inflation I would think it would by now be something similar to the salary of a senior Qantas S/O.
Interesting how your still jaded view of AIPA comes from a time when they left AFAP due to being continually done over by the higher number of domestic pilots and then AIPA's refusal to join the AFAP in giving themselves both barrels to the feet. I guess you could argue that it was the AFAPs self interest that forced AIPA to look after their own self interest.... and yet now you criticise AIPA for trying to do something that the AFAP didn't care about in the early '80s- taking care of ALL the pilots they cover, not just those with the numbers.
Genex,
Question 1:
What should a pilot have done? As has already been said, HOLD OUT. If nobody rushed in to take the deal ahead of the pack behind them, the package offered would have had to improve. This argument was also made 8 years ago, but those advocating this approach were labelled silvertails by those with Shiny Jet Syndrome. The argument was lost because there were too many who were prepared to accept the miserable (compared to Qantas mainline) package that was on offer.
Question 2:
The pay level struck for S/Os is a straight mathematical application of the money paid to Captains - that's it! Are they overpaid for what they do? This argument has raged here for years, but my firm belief is that one group of pilots should NEVER EVER attack the conditions of another pilot group. Given that Qantas flies with a CPT, F/O and 2 S/Os to Europe from Asia whereas British Airways flies the same sector with 2 CPTs and 2 F/Os, I would sggest the S/Os are good value for money. Nobody joins Qantas to be an S/O, I'm sure, but in the current stagnation due to Jetstar, Jetstar NZ, Jeconnect, Jetstar International, Jetstar ???? they have little choice.
Finally, let me make this clear for you Genex: this dispute is just as much about protecting YOUR conditions as it is about protecting ours. Do you think the QF group would pay you ONE MORE CENT to do your job if mainline was eradicated? And with mainline gone, who do you think would be the next tall poppy to be lopped??
Question 1:
What should a pilot have done? As has already been said, HOLD OUT. If nobody rushed in to take the deal ahead of the pack behind them, the package offered would have had to improve. This argument was also made 8 years ago, but those advocating this approach were labelled silvertails by those with Shiny Jet Syndrome. The argument was lost because there were too many who were prepared to accept the miserable (compared to Qantas mainline) package that was on offer.
Question 2:
The pay level struck for S/Os is a straight mathematical application of the money paid to Captains - that's it! Are they overpaid for what they do? This argument has raged here for years, but my firm belief is that one group of pilots should NEVER EVER attack the conditions of another pilot group. Given that Qantas flies with a CPT, F/O and 2 S/Os to Europe from Asia whereas British Airways flies the same sector with 2 CPTs and 2 F/Os, I would sggest the S/Os are good value for money. Nobody joins Qantas to be an S/O, I'm sure, but in the current stagnation due to Jetstar, Jetstar NZ, Jeconnect, Jetstar International, Jetstar ???? they have little choice.
Finally, let me make this clear for you Genex: this dispute is just as much about protecting YOUR conditions as it is about protecting ours. Do you think the QF group would pay you ONE MORE CENT to do your job if mainline was eradicated? And with mainline gone, who do you think would be the next tall poppy to be lopped??
Slippery,
What is the "beginning of the end" you refer to. What do you think the endgame will look like.
And what is the experience que you refer to. Who determines how much waiting is acceptable.
What is the "beginning of the end" you refer to. What do you think the endgame will look like.
And what is the experience que you refer to. Who determines how much waiting is acceptable.
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genex..I dont think what I wrote was as you described....putting it another way, there is no point complaining about matters now after you join a company knowing what they are like...aimed at whistleblowers.....I'm not attacking Jetstar guys, I have good mates there...and allot of those guys are happy with their lot....and good on them if they are happy.
You want to talk about purile drivel, I think enough of that has come from the mouths of bitter 89ers on these forums over the years than from anyone..
You want to talk about purile drivel, I think enough of that has come from the mouths of bitter 89ers on these forums over the years than from anyone..
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Another thing, why join Jetstar, knowing what they are like, and then 12 months later start whinging about how pathetic and cheap they are?....
1. what exactly should a pilot have done, years back, or even now, when the only job offered in Australia WASN'T with Qantas mainline and there was no prospect of ever being hired by a "full service-high wage" carrier.
Then once employed at J* the opportunity for a quicker than otherwise promotion.
How many guys & girls at J* have transferred to mainline operations since the 2004 MOU? ZERO!
Admittedly, only available to those employed at J* pre 2004.
How many guys & girls at J* had applications at Qantas Mainline when they were recruiting up till 2009. I've been told from a reliable source, he couldnt recall any.
MC