American orders 777, could Qantas add some?
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American orders 777, could Qantas add some?
So it seems QF is getting closer and closer to AA, it wouldn't be out of the imagination sadly my imagination is very vivid.
American orders two 777-300ERs | Australian Aviation Magazine
American orders two 777-300ERs | Australian Aviation Magazine
nah, old technology mate 
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American Airlines is the first US carrier to order the 777-300ER model. Air Canada and TAM have them - only three airlines in the whole of the Americas have ordered the 777-300ER.
Story was a few weeks ago, that AA might be taking some 777-300ERs that JAL had ordered but no longer wanted. I have not read the story in detail to see if these aircraft are JAL slots, but Qantas could get some of the same planes.
If Qantas was interested in the 777-200LR aircraft, I think that aircraft would be able to do a flight from Dallas to Sydney, without the need for a stop in Brisbane. Airlines fly the 777-200LR with about 285 seats (maybe a bit less if they have Premium Economy), which is only a few less seats than a 747-400ER as used for SYD-DFW services. Perhaps 5 777-200LRs would allow Qantas to do a daily service to Dallas and keep SFO. 777-300ERs would be for Frankfurt and some London services.
Story was a few weeks ago, that AA might be taking some 777-300ERs that JAL had ordered but no longer wanted. I have not read the story in detail to see if these aircraft are JAL slots, but Qantas could get some of the same planes.
If Qantas was interested in the 777-200LR aircraft, I think that aircraft would be able to do a flight from Dallas to Sydney, without the need for a stop in Brisbane. Airlines fly the 777-200LR with about 285 seats (maybe a bit less if they have Premium Economy), which is only a few less seats than a 747-400ER as used for SYD-DFW services. Perhaps 5 777-200LRs would allow Qantas to do a daily service to Dallas and keep SFO. 777-300ERs would be for Frankfurt and some London services.
The 200LR and 300ER are very similar other than of course the length/weight and capacity. Same engines (GE90s), same cockpit, same wing etc etc.
Old technology though of course. All of QFs competitors(SQ/EK/CX) have it wrong
In QFs case 200LRs could have done SYD-DFW and PER-LHR as well - but who wants to be a trailblazer
Old technology though of course. All of QFs competitors(SQ/EK/CX) have it wrong
In QFs case 200LRs could have done SYD-DFW and PER-LHR as well - but who wants to be a trailblazer
200s... 300s... LR... ER... gee, just for the clarity (in a snowballs chance in hell) in case QF did actually order some - which are the long range ones and which should be put on domestic routes?
The 300ER does it ALL very well- We operate then on 45 min sectors to BAH and 16 hour ones to SFO.
It carries all the passengers (445 in two class) all the fuel and all the frieght.
I love flying the 200LR, but it doesn't carry enough to make the long-range viable.
It carries all the passengers (445 in two class) all the fuel and all the frieght.
I love flying the 200LR, but it doesn't carry enough to make the long-range viable.
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
It carries all the passengers (445 in two class) all the fuel and all the frieght.
I would see zero chance of QF operating them 7 across in business (three business seats in the middle), and 10 across in economy.
DXB-SFO nil wind is 1700 nm further than the 77W can fly with max structural payload, it will be payload limited (MTOW limit).
Are you sure about that flight time ? 7100 nm (DXB-SFO) in 16 hours would be an average speed of around M0.77, slower than a 737.
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Well.. DXB-LAX and LAX-DXB average 7500 air NM.
The EK 200-LR goes 16:30hrs to LAX, 3 class, 266 pax, total payload 45T, 6-10T below MTOW.
The EK 300-ER goes 16:30hrs to LAX, 3 class, 360ish pax, total payload 40T. MTOW.
Just some facts..
The EK 200-LR goes 16:30hrs to LAX, 3 class, 266 pax, total payload 45T, 6-10T below MTOW.
The EK 300-ER goes 16:30hrs to LAX, 3 class, 360ish pax, total payload 40T. MTOW.
Just some facts..
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Originally Posted by Visual Procedures
Just some facts..
45t of payload on the 77L represents 70% of its maximum payload capacity.
40t of payload on the 77W represents 57% of its maximum payload capacity.
So obviously, passengers, baggage, or freight is being left behind, as one would expect.
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So I heard that Boeing were offering certain airlines the opportunity to buy 777s on the cheap because of delays to the 787. Apparently there was capacity to deliver them pretty quickly, too. Not sure if it's true or not, it's just what I heard.
I have to say that for an airline with so many longhaul routes it is strange that Qantas never purchased any 777s. I suppose they planned on flying the thinner routes with 787s that should have been delivered years ago. Oh well.
I have to say that for an airline with so many longhaul routes it is strange that Qantas never purchased any 777s. I suppose they planned on flying the thinner routes with 787s that should have been delivered years ago. Oh well.
I would see zero chance of QF operating them 7 across in business (three business seats in the middle), and 10 across in economy.
Zeke,
Figures were off the top of my head.
445 is the largest total POB I've had, so that includes crew.
By Maximum payload, you mean difference between DOW and MZFW?
Sure, but what does that matter?
The aircraft can carry it's maximum payload a shorter distance (MZFW to anywhere in Europe, Asia or Africa from DXB is a doddle) or a reduced payload (still MUCH more than any comparable aircraft) a longer distance.
What are you suggesting as an alternative?
Figures were off the top of my head.
445 is the largest total POB I've had, so that includes crew.
By Maximum payload, you mean difference between DOW and MZFW?
Sure, but what does that matter?
The aircraft can carry it's maximum payload a shorter distance (MZFW to anywhere in Europe, Asia or Africa from DXB is a doddle) or a reduced payload (still MUCH more than any comparable aircraft) a longer distance.
What are you suggesting as an alternative?
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You better inform Emirates Zeke, their website lists the 2 class seat capacity as 427 (42J/385Y) or 442 (42J/400Y). 3 infants sounds fair.
Boeing 777-300ER | Our Fleet | Flying with Emirates | Emirates Australia
Boeing 777-300ER | Our Fleet | Flying with Emirates | Emirates Australia
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The 777 family is simply unmatched.
From 250 pax to 400 pax, from 1000 nm to 8500 nm, with the lowest seat costs, best freight capacity, most flexible, highest reliability, easiest training, easiest to handle in horrible conditions, most fun, best looks, coolest and most modern technology around, airframe and software. And as an individual fleet unit the 777-300ER is simply the very best ever.
A younger Sherm used to taxy the big lady slowly round Sydney airport just so the QF drivers could see what they were missing. Sorry.
It is a marketing manager, CEO, CFO and fleet planners dream. End of story.
Any airline without them must be way smarter than the rest of the world.
From 250 pax to 400 pax, from 1000 nm to 8500 nm, with the lowest seat costs, best freight capacity, most flexible, highest reliability, easiest training, easiest to handle in horrible conditions, most fun, best looks, coolest and most modern technology around, airframe and software. And as an individual fleet unit the 777-300ER is simply the very best ever.
A younger Sherm used to taxy the big lady slowly round Sydney airport just so the QF drivers could see what they were missing. Sorry.
It is a marketing manager, CEO, CFO and fleet planners dream. End of story.
Any airline without them must be way smarter than the rest of the world.
This 18 month old article from Ben Sandilands is worth revisiting.....
V Australia reminds Qantas how wrong it was about the 777
August 17, 2009 – 4:32 pm, by Ben Sandilands
Accompanied by the Virgin Blue alternative to the Qantas children's choir, Brett Godfrey reveals the name of the airline's long haul operation
Virgin Blue has really shown how it can punish Qantas for its absurd resistance to acquiring Boeing 777s.
The announced ‘phase two’ expansion of its V Australia fleet which rises to only four of these jets by December is going to be an enormous headache for Qantas.
And especially considering it holds orders or options for up to 13 Boeing 777-300ERs.
Qantas made two incredibly inept decisions concerning its fleet needs in recent years, in choosing to buy a large fleet of Boeing 787 Dreamliners, and not buying Boeing 777s.
In its defence, it was as easy a sell for the ‘plastic fantastic’ 787 sales pitch from Boeing as many other carriers, just more so considering the order peaked at 65 units and was recently trimmed to 50.
But when Geoff Dixon, then CEO, and Peter Gregg, then CFO, gloated over the wisdom of that deal in December 2005, their major competitors, Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Emirates, saw clearly the merits of the latest versions of the 777 and swooped.
The 777 is a product of a Boeing that knew how to design airliners and deliver on its promises, not the latter day Boeing that spread a truly promising concept in the 787 far and wide among sub contractors and risk sharing partners, some of them unequal to a task that the new management of Boeing wasn’t effectively supervising anyhow.
Hobbled with an aging fleet that Qantas for a period neglected to even maintain in a clean and reliable manner, it p*ssed more than a billion dollars in excess fuel consumption into the wind by not having 777s in its fleet. Money it will never get back. The 777-300ER is the most fuel efficient 300-400 seat sized longer range airliner available until at least 2014 and perhaps well beyond.
Qantas lost. Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Emirates gained. And now V Australia is gaining too, even by using the 777s on routes that are really too short in some cases, such as to Phuket or Nadi, to deliver the best economics of the jet.
These short routes give V Australia the chance to play havoc against the likes of Jetstar or Air Pacific at times when the 777s would otherwise be idle between long haul flights, racking up parking fees at the major Australian airports.
Much the same way that Emirates punts its A380s and 777s across the Tasman daily to take advantage of the big cargo container market that Qantas and Air NZ neglect with their smaller single aisle jets, plus passengers as a bit more cream on top, rather than do nothing while waiting for the right time to fly back to Dubai.
Being optimised for long haul, the 777s also have much better economy class amenity than shorter haul jets (despite Emirates going for 10 across seating).
Anyone who is familiar with the crammed condition of economy class on a Qantas 747 to Johannesburg is going to be pleasantly surprised by a V Australia 777. The difference will be very noticeable over the 12-13 hour long flights.
Using 777s, V Australia will be able to offer very attractive alternatives over a range of shorter as well as longer haul flights, cutting across the territory of both Jetstar and the Qantas full service offerings.
This takes the Virgin Blue subsidiary out of its until now total exposure to the cut throat environment of the trans Pacific routes where the A380 does give Qantas a cost per seat per kilometre advantage, as well as an even nicer airliner. And it allows V Australia to diversify into markets where the giant Airbus is some years away from being a force, which it won’t become until sustained growth returns to international aviation.
And the Qantas answer to the 777, the slightly smaller 787, isn’t coming any day soon, maybe never. Qantas can use A330s very effectively over medium distances where that Airbus is the efficiency leader, but as it turns out, those who use the 777 against it in Asia, Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Emirates, also have large A330 fleets for just that reason. They have the long and medium haul routes covered with A330/777 strategies that eluded Qantas, to its costly disadvantage.
In fact out of its better equipped major competitors, Emirates is the largest A380, 777 and A330 operator in the world, with Singapore Airlines also flying large numbers of all three types.
On Wednesday Qantas has allowed extra time for its always important financial year results announcement and briefings.
There are whispers. Some say it has cancelled the 787. Others that it has come to an agreement with Boeing to replace some or all 787s with 777s.
If it is a case of the latter, better late than never, but rather sad considering the squandered opportunities.
August 17, 2009 – 4:32 pm, by Ben Sandilands
Accompanied by the Virgin Blue alternative to the Qantas children's choir, Brett Godfrey reveals the name of the airline's long haul operation
Virgin Blue has really shown how it can punish Qantas for its absurd resistance to acquiring Boeing 777s.
The announced ‘phase two’ expansion of its V Australia fleet which rises to only four of these jets by December is going to be an enormous headache for Qantas.
And especially considering it holds orders or options for up to 13 Boeing 777-300ERs.
Qantas made two incredibly inept decisions concerning its fleet needs in recent years, in choosing to buy a large fleet of Boeing 787 Dreamliners, and not buying Boeing 777s.
In its defence, it was as easy a sell for the ‘plastic fantastic’ 787 sales pitch from Boeing as many other carriers, just more so considering the order peaked at 65 units and was recently trimmed to 50.
But when Geoff Dixon, then CEO, and Peter Gregg, then CFO, gloated over the wisdom of that deal in December 2005, their major competitors, Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Emirates, saw clearly the merits of the latest versions of the 777 and swooped.
The 777 is a product of a Boeing that knew how to design airliners and deliver on its promises, not the latter day Boeing that spread a truly promising concept in the 787 far and wide among sub contractors and risk sharing partners, some of them unequal to a task that the new management of Boeing wasn’t effectively supervising anyhow.
Hobbled with an aging fleet that Qantas for a period neglected to even maintain in a clean and reliable manner, it p*ssed more than a billion dollars in excess fuel consumption into the wind by not having 777s in its fleet. Money it will never get back. The 777-300ER is the most fuel efficient 300-400 seat sized longer range airliner available until at least 2014 and perhaps well beyond.
Qantas lost. Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Emirates gained. And now V Australia is gaining too, even by using the 777s on routes that are really too short in some cases, such as to Phuket or Nadi, to deliver the best economics of the jet.
These short routes give V Australia the chance to play havoc against the likes of Jetstar or Air Pacific at times when the 777s would otherwise be idle between long haul flights, racking up parking fees at the major Australian airports.
Much the same way that Emirates punts its A380s and 777s across the Tasman daily to take advantage of the big cargo container market that Qantas and Air NZ neglect with their smaller single aisle jets, plus passengers as a bit more cream on top, rather than do nothing while waiting for the right time to fly back to Dubai.
Being optimised for long haul, the 777s also have much better economy class amenity than shorter haul jets (despite Emirates going for 10 across seating).
Anyone who is familiar with the crammed condition of economy class on a Qantas 747 to Johannesburg is going to be pleasantly surprised by a V Australia 777. The difference will be very noticeable over the 12-13 hour long flights.
Using 777s, V Australia will be able to offer very attractive alternatives over a range of shorter as well as longer haul flights, cutting across the territory of both Jetstar and the Qantas full service offerings.
This takes the Virgin Blue subsidiary out of its until now total exposure to the cut throat environment of the trans Pacific routes where the A380 does give Qantas a cost per seat per kilometre advantage, as well as an even nicer airliner. And it allows V Australia to diversify into markets where the giant Airbus is some years away from being a force, which it won’t become until sustained growth returns to international aviation.
And the Qantas answer to the 777, the slightly smaller 787, isn’t coming any day soon, maybe never. Qantas can use A330s very effectively over medium distances where that Airbus is the efficiency leader, but as it turns out, those who use the 777 against it in Asia, Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Emirates, also have large A330 fleets for just that reason. They have the long and medium haul routes covered with A330/777 strategies that eluded Qantas, to its costly disadvantage.
In fact out of its better equipped major competitors, Emirates is the largest A380, 777 and A330 operator in the world, with Singapore Airlines also flying large numbers of all three types.
On Wednesday Qantas has allowed extra time for its always important financial year results announcement and briefings.
There are whispers. Some say it has cancelled the 787. Others that it has come to an agreement with Boeing to replace some or all 787s with 777s.
If it is a case of the latter, better late than never, but rather sad considering the squandered opportunities.