Weather holding fuel
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Interesting that there is ammended traffic holding now promulgated into BNE. I have rung ATC several times over this and it takes a public forum to get some action. For the record 16000 hours, 10000 plus domestic 737 ops plus another couple of thousand on the 747 . I believe I know a thing or two about the operation of an aircraft. Wait and see the memos coming your way from CANBERRA.
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Schlong,
Hasn't the Brisbane traffic holding been done to death in another thread? The argument is simply whether we (collectively) accept the risks associated with CROPS or say "No" and put up with single runway ops. Given that we're in for a crappy wx summer (by all accounts) it's going to be ugly.
We need either more concrete or more terminal nav gizmos.
Nobody likes traffic holding.
DNC
Hasn't the Brisbane traffic holding been done to death in another thread? The argument is simply whether we (collectively) accept the risks associated with CROPS or say "No" and put up with single runway ops. Given that we're in for a crappy wx summer (by all accounts) it's going to be ugly.
We need either more concrete or more terminal nav gizmos.
Nobody likes traffic holding.
DNC
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I think I can safely say that a line ATC doesn't have the first damn clue or care about SAM, SLAM or whatever acronym you use next.
Things change, WX changes, RWY's break etc etc.
Either you hold, divert, or declare an emergency and take priority. Your fuel carriage is a matter for you and your company. Interest level - YAWN.
Oh and I look forward to the mountain of paperwork from the Canberra NOC, now that is FUNNY.
Things change, WX changes, RWY's break etc etc.
Either you hold, divert, or declare an emergency and take priority. Your fuel carriage is a matter for you and your company. Interest level - YAWN.
Oh and I look forward to the mountain of paperwork from the Canberra NOC, now that is FUNNY.
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My basic understanding is:
If the actual conditions are above the minima, but below the lower safe, instrument approaches will be in use.
This use of instrument approaches will reduce the rate of arrivals due to slower speeds down final, plus the preclusion of visual separation.
This reduced rate of arrivals may cause delays (demand v supply) even though the conditions are relatively benign, at that instant.
If the original forecast conditions (TEMPO or INTER) gave cause to carry holding fuel in excess of the current delay, a holding fuel NOTAM will not be issued. (even though the cause of the delay at that very instant is not the TEMPO or INTER)
Clear as mud?
In other words, dont expect a NOTAM for holding fuel if the forecast conditions gave rise to the possibility of holding in the first place. (ie: below the absolute lowest minima) The grey area comes when differing aircraft can make the approach in marginal conditions, or when it comes to clearing the log-jam when the weather improves (as I think somebody mentioned on page 2)
Cheers,
If the actual conditions are above the minima, but below the lower safe, instrument approaches will be in use.
This use of instrument approaches will reduce the rate of arrivals due to slower speeds down final, plus the preclusion of visual separation.
This reduced rate of arrivals may cause delays (demand v supply) even though the conditions are relatively benign, at that instant.
If the original forecast conditions (TEMPO or INTER) gave cause to carry holding fuel in excess of the current delay, a holding fuel NOTAM will not be issued. (even though the cause of the delay at that very instant is not the TEMPO or INTER)
Clear as mud?
In other words, dont expect a NOTAM for holding fuel if the forecast conditions gave rise to the possibility of holding in the first place. (ie: below the absolute lowest minima) The grey area comes when differing aircraft can make the approach in marginal conditions, or when it comes to clearing the log-jam when the weather improves (as I think somebody mentioned on page 2)
Cheers,
As an example, if Melbourne TTF had TEMPO vis 3000 meters in rain, the vast majority of RPT aircraft would not require 60 minutes holding fuel. The question is, does ATC see it this way or do they see the TEMPO and assume 60 minutes fuel is carried? Having said that, when a pilot sees conditions such as these, it should be glaringly obvious that if the weather is in fact down to 3000 meters, things will be going slowly and delays will be inevitable. Sometimes he will have to decide between payload and extra fuel, even though the fuel is not legally required. Ultimate responsibility rests with the Pilot in command. Thats why he gets or at least used to get the big bucks.
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Pretty simple really.
PIC makes the decision re fuel & wears it. No excuses. As a PIC you read between the lines. Have plan AB&C ready to go. If you're unsure about your fuel load prior to departure, you prob haven't got enough. ATC will process as many a/c as they can.
Years ago I remember when wx was on the deck at SYD, wind was a light ese. They were using 34L & R WTF! for ages most were missing out. We were wondering why no one said 'require 16R'. Finally someone did & they got in.(16R has lower minimas & app lighting.)
As for ATC knowing about you fuel use & what you carry..why would they need to know that? They will process you ASAP. If that isn't good enough you push them with 'requires' then a PAN & or divert requirement. Basic pilot sh!t I thought.
Difference between knowledge & wisdom I guess.
PIC makes the decision re fuel & wears it. No excuses. As a PIC you read between the lines. Have plan AB&C ready to go. If you're unsure about your fuel load prior to departure, you prob haven't got enough. ATC will process as many a/c as they can.
Years ago I remember when wx was on the deck at SYD, wind was a light ese. They were using 34L & R WTF! for ages most were missing out. We were wondering why no one said 'require 16R'. Finally someone did & they got in.(16R has lower minimas & app lighting.)
As for ATC knowing about you fuel use & what you carry..why would they need to know that? They will process you ASAP. If that isn't good enough you push them with 'requires' then a PAN & or divert requirement. Basic pilot sh!t I thought.
Difference between knowledge & wisdom I guess.
I've operated into SY and BN thousands of times and to suggest that any pilot who operates regularly into these (or any other for that matter) ports doesn't know their responsibility for fuel and have backup plans in place, has very little knowledge or respect for professional pilots.
While I have never held for longer than indicated by the WX/ notam, I think the point trying to be made is that if ATC can't process aircraft within the time indicated on the traffic holding notam, issue an updated one. Also pretty simple really...
While I have never held for longer than indicated by the WX/ notam, I think the point trying to be made is that if ATC can't process aircraft within the time indicated on the traffic holding notam, issue an updated one. Also pretty simple really...
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Fair enough ggrowler and maggot driver,
But in the environment that we ALL now work in it is no use people on here directing their vitriol at the operational ATC working your aircraft. Declare a PAN and get priority if required.
I don't get stuck into the pilot when my bag goes missing or the service is cancelled, that is not the pilots area of responsibility. As putting out the Notams is not the OPERATIONAL ATCs area of responsibilty.
Have a go at ASA managerment by all means, direct your frustrations at the NOC (good luck), but the guy/girl on the end of the headset is not there to bugger up your day.
But in the environment that we ALL now work in it is no use people on here directing their vitriol at the operational ATC working your aircraft. Declare a PAN and get priority if required.
I don't get stuck into the pilot when my bag goes missing or the service is cancelled, that is not the pilots area of responsibility. As putting out the Notams is not the OPERATIONAL ATCs area of responsibilty.
Have a go at ASA managerment by all means, direct your frustrations at the NOC (good luck), but the guy/girl on the end of the headset is not there to bugger up your day.
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max1
I would beg to differ they did not direct vitriol to any ATC'ers just to Pilots who dont carry enough fuel! Sydney is an automatic INTER in CAVOK if weather is crap well make it a double TEMPO that has put me in good steed over the years!
A380-800 Driver
All well and good but until you are doing 5 sectors a day with 30 min turnarounds this is beyond you mate!
But in the environment that we ALL now work in it is no use people on here directing their vitriol at the operational ATC working your aircraft. Declare a PAN and get priority if required.
A380-800 Driver
Ek provides fuel for an alternate regardless of wx.
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Hoding Fuel
A380 Driver: Not trying to stir the Pot, but you are missing the point Dude. RPT domestic Ops in OZ don't require an Alternate, unless it's below Alternate Minima or SAM's. EK Ops DO. Regardless of the weather. Not coz we are special, only because of the OM-A Fuel policy. We use Approach Minima to the Runway most likely to be used at the Flight Planning Stage, then fuel for 2 Alternates, not SAM's. Chalk & Cheese Mate. And we don't carry anything for Thunderstorms, can't quite figure that one out after 9 years! 
For the record we usually carry Cooly' For BNE, YMAV for MEL and YSCB for SYD. Which is about as bloody useful as tits on a bull!
For the record we usually carry Cooly' For BNE, YMAV for MEL and YSCB for SYD. Which is about as bloody useful as tits on a bull!
Last edited by EK_Bus Driver; 6th Dec 2010 at 14:23.
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A380 driver: Do you have just a bare alternate or alt + ATC holding?
A bare alternate is of little use if they put you in a hold for 15 mins without any fanfare. If TS come in then fuel to hold for a while will get you to your destination while Altn fuel will get you there!
A bare alternate is of little use if they put you in a hold for 15 mins without any fanfare. If TS come in then fuel to hold for a while will get you to your destination while Altn fuel will get you there!
Question for the fuel watchers amongst us: Over the last few days around ML there have been significant deviations around weather - some probably added 20 minutes or more flight time.
I can't imagine this could be specifically planned for so why aren't we hearing a great wailing & gnashing of teeth?
Surely you don't carry some for "Mum"........?
I don't disagree with the need to publish amended traffic holding NOTAMs, but are you expecting this to always be well ahead of time? The problem is life ain't so predictable. The NOTAMs are published based on expected conditions & if reality decides to be different they're wrong.
I can't imagine this could be specifically planned for so why aren't we hearing a great wailing & gnashing of teeth?
Surely you don't carry some for "Mum"........?
I don't disagree with the need to publish amended traffic holding NOTAMs, but are you expecting this to always be well ahead of time? The problem is life ain't so predictable. The NOTAMs are published based on expected conditions & if reality decides to be different they're wrong.
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Question for the fuel watchers amongst us: Over the last few days around ML there have been significant deviations around weather - some probably added 20 minutes or more flight time.
In any case, that's variable reserve.
I can't imagine this could be specifically planned for
As has been indicated, aircraft will generally carry fuel to get from A to B (plus a % variable), hold for the period INDICATED on wx/ notam, do an approach, miss out, then bug out to an alternate(again with variable), do another approach and land with Fixed Reserve. The alternate fuel may not/ probably won't be carried if the destination has multiple useable runways.
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Bula, good question. I'd like to know the answer. At the time, the 34R LOC was servicable, so the LOC-Y approach is suitable (SAM doesn't apply to LOC approach). In that case, there was only one runway with ILS and SAM. So some aircraft required 34L, especially after a 34R go round, which blew out the delays. At one point I think a hazard alert was issued for holding in excess of the published traffic holding NOTAM. It will only get more complicated when the 34R LOC gets taken out; RNAV could work but not all aircraft equipped. The weather was extraordinary for 34 runways but when it's 16 and the 16L ILS is being replaced we'll see a repeat of these shenanigans undoubtedly.
20 mins flight time? In a jet that's approximately another 150 track miles, not 150 off track 150 track miles extra!
In any case, that's variable reserve.
Generally a look at the SIGWX, area forecast and radars will indicate if some ducking and weaving may be required, as well as potentially lower cruise levels, and extra fuel is carried for that.
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So..... Why don't the likes of schlong hauler look at the forecast, consider the time of day & think "hmmm, might be some extra delays due traffic" & load a bit more on?
In general the system must be working OK, how many aircraft are running out of fuel or declaring fuel emergencies?