At Last - A Voice of Reason
Not that a cadetship won't work but the training regime they want for their cadets is the same that would be applied for a pilot coming out of GA
Can someone explain to me exactly why the cadet pool for legacy carriers in europe have "high quality cadets" to choose from and J* is scraping the bottom of the barrel? A few people said this and it doesn't make sense to me. I dont see the difference between a pool of fresh CPL's in europe entering a cadetship versus a pool of fresh CPLs in australia entering a cadetship?
I think both sides of the argument raise good points and this topic could be done to death but it would be good to see some accurate figures of low hour cadets in airlines in Europe for example. The differences in training. First Officer versus Second Officer positions. Crash/incident statistics etc. Also how they rank in comparison to more experienced pilots when it comes to check flights or sim sessions etc.
Whilst Jetstar might like to claim that JE was 'untruthful' they haven't exactly addressed the issues.
What scenario would cause an employee to do this?
If management ended up 'misleading the travelling public' its invariably a mistake, an oversight or beyond its control. Is anyone sacked for this?
Unless of course they do it publicly.
Then why base pilots in Singapore?
This of course applies if someone speaks highly of the airline then does it? Why bother claiming its all untrue when really, the fact that its allegedly untrue has little to do with the actual reason for JE's dismissal.
Oh no, this is now public, does this pilot get sacked too?
The employee chose to publicly make incorrect accusations on multiple and separate occasions against Jetstar with the effect of misleading the travelling public
If management ended up 'misleading the travelling public' its invariably a mistake, an oversight or beyond its control. Is anyone sacked for this?
We will never, nor have, taken action against any employee for raising safety concerns
In the past, and moving forward, our pilots based in Singapore achieve better take home pay in comparison to our Australian pilots. Assertions of a 50 per cent discrepancy in pilot pay between Australia and Singapore or circumvention of existing industrial law are patently false.
he was sacked for breaching company policy of speaking publicly about the airline.
Geoff Klouth, a Jetstar pilot for four years and commercial pilot since 1987, outlined his concerns at a senate inquiry into aviation training and standards.
Last edited by Chronic Snoozer; 26th Nov 2010 at 17:32. Reason: Too much would. sic!
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“We will never, nor have, taken action against any employee for raising safety concerns - we welcome genuine engagement regarding safety from any part of our workforce - without fear or favour,” Mr Hall said.
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I think both sides of the argument raise good points and this topic could be done to death but it would be good to see some accurate figures of low hour cadets in airlines in Europe for example. The differences in training. First Officer versus Second Officer positions. Crash/incident statistics etc. Also how they rank in comparison to more experienced pilots when it comes to check flights or sim sessions etc.
To be clear; we have the highest respect for anyone who completes a course of higher education. The fact is that a four year degree has no relationship to an individual’s skills as a pilot. The simple truth is, regardless of the classroom situations and lessons learned in that environment, there is no acceptable substitute for the experience of actual flight hours in aircraft.
We realize that technology has evolved to a much higher level in this industry, allowing us the luxury of fully automated cockpits and aircraft that can operate in almost any environment imaginable. Technology is however, subject to failure and it is when that failure occurs that the skills of a pilot are tested. It is at this point that a pilot’s experience becomes critical and is a matter of life or death for everyone involved. A pilot is unable to draw upon a college degree to ensure a successful outcome; they must instead they must draw upon those hours and years of experience to avoid a disaster.
We fully understand the industry’s desire to have lower standards as it will allow them to use relative inexperience as an excuse to lower pay rates as was noted in the hearings on the Colgan 3407 crash.
For too many decades, aviation safety has been based upon the lowest bidder or the odds of something happening compared to the cost of fixing a problem. FAA Administrator Babbitt, himself a former airline pilot knows of this firsthand, when he experienced these same problems in the 1980’s when he and his fellow pilots uncovered thousands of maintenance lapses at Eastern Airlines.
We have seen too many tragic results of this short sighted approach over the years. The 1500 hour requirement with specific experience must be the minimum acceptable standard. The American public deserves no less.
We remain committed with CAPA, the families of Colgan 3407 and Congress in calling for Administrator Babbitt to accept nothing less than a 1500 hour minimum with specific experience for any pilot operating passenger airliners,” Bourne concluded.
We realize that technology has evolved to a much higher level in this industry, allowing us the luxury of fully automated cockpits and aircraft that can operate in almost any environment imaginable. Technology is however, subject to failure and it is when that failure occurs that the skills of a pilot are tested. It is at this point that a pilot’s experience becomes critical and is a matter of life or death for everyone involved. A pilot is unable to draw upon a college degree to ensure a successful outcome; they must instead they must draw upon those hours and years of experience to avoid a disaster.
We fully understand the industry’s desire to have lower standards as it will allow them to use relative inexperience as an excuse to lower pay rates as was noted in the hearings on the Colgan 3407 crash.
For too many decades, aviation safety has been based upon the lowest bidder or the odds of something happening compared to the cost of fixing a problem. FAA Administrator Babbitt, himself a former airline pilot knows of this firsthand, when he experienced these same problems in the 1980’s when he and his fellow pilots uncovered thousands of maintenance lapses at Eastern Airlines.
We have seen too many tragic results of this short sighted approach over the years. The 1500 hour requirement with specific experience must be the minimum acceptable standard. The American public deserves no less.
We remain committed with CAPA, the families of Colgan 3407 and Congress in calling for Administrator Babbitt to accept nothing less than a 1500 hour minimum with specific experience for any pilot operating passenger airliners,” Bourne concluded.
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I find it unbelievable that any company could write into an employment agreement, that personal illness is enough reason for dismissal. This is the most outright evil clause, that I could ever imagine being introduced into an employment contract, and harks back to the mid-19th century.
One could well imagine, of course ,that a similar condition is drawn up for any CEO employment contract!
One could well imagine, of course ,that a similar condition is drawn up for any CEO employment contract!
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Look towards the shipping
Once upon a time young men aspired to join the merchant navy, long and fairly well paid careers were had and their position in society was fairly well respected. Take a look at any merchant vessel now days with one of the big brands painted on the side. Its port of registry is Panama and the greasey looking crew are from Taiwan and I doubt that shipping costs have significantly declined as a result. There are one or two plumb type VIP jobs out there, but mostly its now a low paid job that few aspire to. I'm not sure of the safety stats in shipping, but it seems the bean counters have won that one.
They call it reflagging and that is what is happening to our aviation industry right now and it is all still heading south for us pilots.
I'm not sure that we can stop the inevitable, our coastwatch boys are staring down the barrel of UAV's and aerial war is being waged remotely from warehouses. However we should do our best to mitigate the impact on our profession before it is eroded from a profession to nothing more than barely skilled labour.
They call it reflagging and that is what is happening to our aviation industry right now and it is all still heading south for us pilots.
I'm not sure that we can stop the inevitable, our coastwatch boys are staring down the barrel of UAV's and aerial war is being waged remotely from warehouses. However we should do our best to mitigate the impact on our profession before it is eroded from a profession to nothing more than barely skilled labour.
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1500
Let us reduce what is happening in the airline industry to its lowest common denominator (the KISS principle):
FACT- Cadet programs are a useful way for the airlines to save money by using pilots with minimal experience.
FACT – When promoting or filling command positions, the airlines will again try to save money by using the cheapest possible pilot.
FACT – This erosion of T&C’s will lead to a lower quality of pilot as talented individuals will just go elsewhere.
SOLUTION – There is only one which will reverse this race to the bottom while being sensible, simple and fair: implementation of the 1500 hour rule.
FACT- Cadet programs are a useful way for the airlines to save money by using pilots with minimal experience.
FACT – When promoting or filling command positions, the airlines will again try to save money by using the cheapest possible pilot.
FACT – This erosion of T&C’s will lead to a lower quality of pilot as talented individuals will just go elsewhere.
SOLUTION – There is only one which will reverse this race to the bottom while being sensible, simple and fair: implementation of the 1500 hour rule.
Jabiman, I wished I lived in your simplicity world. So, let's stick with the KISS principle:
FACT: Cadet programs are one way for airlines to recruit pilots
FACT: Pilots entering through the cadet scheme may have a better introduction into airline flying than pilots with more hours which were gained in an activity that is irrelevant to the airline environment.
FACT: The days when pilots were recruited because the industry was high risk and alpha males full of 'derring do' were happy to accept well above average salaries to accept the challenge finished along with making ice cream at home.
SOLUTION: If you feel so strongly that you are under appreciated because you don't get the big bucks then I would suggest you work hard to change your attitude and/or work situation.
Alternatively, you take the advice of Uncle Chopper and 'toughen the f..k up!'.
FACT: Cadet programs are one way for airlines to recruit pilots
FACT: Pilots entering through the cadet scheme may have a better introduction into airline flying than pilots with more hours which were gained in an activity that is irrelevant to the airline environment.
FACT: The days when pilots were recruited because the industry was high risk and alpha males full of 'derring do' were happy to accept well above average salaries to accept the challenge finished along with making ice cream at home.
SOLUTION: If you feel so strongly that you are under appreciated because you don't get the big bucks then I would suggest you work hard to change your attitude and/or work situation.
Alternatively, you take the advice of Uncle Chopper and 'toughen the f..k up!'.
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BBurrito,
“If it were a true free market the bank would go bust”
I totally agree. I am fully supportive of letting SOME banks fail. Propping them up does nothing more than reward poor performance and will pave the way for bigger problems later.
“I am also a believer in the free market, but there hasn't been a free market for nearly a 100 years.”
Again, we are on the same page. The airline industry, in Australia especially, has never been subject to a free market, not even close. I have never suggested that it has.
I have suggested, however, that the collapse of Ansett, amongst other things, removed MOST of the artificial barriers put in place within the labor market. Not all, but most and now the market is no longer a closed shop. The comment I made before regarding salaries at Jetstar, especially regarding pilots, is that they are now subject to market forces in COMPARISON to the salaries at QF.
“BA and LH have a massive line-up of highly skilled young hopefuls with an ambition of joining what is (still) a worthwhile career path with respectable carriers.”
This is not the case and in fact BA often fall short on cadet intake numbers during buyout times.
“Jet* is having to scrape the bottom of the barrel….”
And your evidence is…..?
“… didn't they react in a proper and decisive manner?”
It will soon become evident that fatigue was the principal factor in the accident in Buffalo, in addition to poor training standards.
“The Americans have realised that the primary reason for the situation they are now in….”
Can you explain what “situation” they are now in?
“If it were a true free market the bank would go bust”
I totally agree. I am fully supportive of letting SOME banks fail. Propping them up does nothing more than reward poor performance and will pave the way for bigger problems later.
“I am also a believer in the free market, but there hasn't been a free market for nearly a 100 years.”
Again, we are on the same page. The airline industry, in Australia especially, has never been subject to a free market, not even close. I have never suggested that it has.
I have suggested, however, that the collapse of Ansett, amongst other things, removed MOST of the artificial barriers put in place within the labor market. Not all, but most and now the market is no longer a closed shop. The comment I made before regarding salaries at Jetstar, especially regarding pilots, is that they are now subject to market forces in COMPARISON to the salaries at QF.
“BA and LH have a massive line-up of highly skilled young hopefuls with an ambition of joining what is (still) a worthwhile career path with respectable carriers.”
This is not the case and in fact BA often fall short on cadet intake numbers during buyout times.
“Jet* is having to scrape the bottom of the barrel….”
And your evidence is…..?
“… didn't they react in a proper and decisive manner?”
It will soon become evident that fatigue was the principal factor in the accident in Buffalo, in addition to poor training standards.
“The Americans have realised that the primary reason for the situation they are now in….”
Can you explain what “situation” they are now in?
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Professor, did you comprehend my post that you quote from? There is no free market. We live in a Centrally Planned political economy. We live in a fascist society where the profits accrue to the top 0.1% of the population, yet the costs are passed to the rest of the poulation, in the form of a hidden tax, otherwise known as inflation. This inflation process is through money & credit creation out of thin air. You are arguing within the system, I am arguing about the system itself. Perhaps you should research "debt as money". You did know that the paper currency in your wallet is actually a debt instrument? It came into existence as a loan, it is your asset, but someone else's liability. It is a claim on future labour. Note I choose the word claim, not obligation carefully, as it may not be accepted in the future in exchange for someone else's labour.
As the masses are slowly coming to realise in the US & Europe, the elites have harvested the masses and are about to ride off into the sunset with their & future generations lifetimes entire labour output via the debt based monetary system.
As the masses are slowly coming to realise in the US & Europe, the elites have harvested the masses and are about to ride off into the sunset with their & future generations lifetimes entire labour output via the debt based monetary system.
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"There is no free market."
Again, I agree. A free market is an ideology, perhaps a religion to some.
I use the term free as a measure of relativity.
It exists in isolated form, but NO economy is truly subject to free market forces.
However, were we to be living in a “Centrally Planned political economy”, as you suggest, we would NOT be conversing via high speed broadband internet as we presently are.
Again, I agree. A free market is an ideology, perhaps a religion to some.
I use the term free as a measure of relativity.
It exists in isolated form, but NO economy is truly subject to free market forces.
However, were we to be living in a “Centrally Planned political economy”, as you suggest, we would NOT be conversing via high speed broadband internet as we presently are.
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However, were we to be living in a “Centrally Planned political economy”, as you suggest, we would NOT be conversing via high speed broadband internet as we presently are.
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breakfastburrito, I do agree with some of the things you're saying, but you should consider taking a tertiary course or three in macroeconomics rather than deriving your education from conspiracy theorists, as your understanding of the underpinnings of the economy and the catalysts of inflation is lacking.
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"Professor"
two words for you - "Turing Test".
Sorry,
Fail.
(the "Turing Test" involves a computer program engaging someone in conversation using keyboard and screen and convincing them they are chatting with a real person).
n
two words for you - "Turing Test".
Sorry,
Fail.
(the "Turing Test" involves a computer program engaging someone in conversation using keyboard and screen and convincing them they are chatting with a real person).
n
Last edited by noip; 28th Nov 2010 at 01:01.
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#1AHRS
u couldn't have missed the mark further if u tried...
Look at shipping... Exactly look at it...
To be technical crew on ANY ship operating in Australian waters -disregarding cargo - you MUST have an Aussie licence and MUST be a member of THE union - yeap just the one.
To operate larger ships in a higher position limitations are made based on your experience on a given tonnage and days in that position. No shortcut cadets here. Only path is do the hard yards do exams and be a member of the union. There is a massive shortage of drivers recently and the only way to rectify it is to hire or advance highly experienced personnel. Not cheapest cadet they can find or bypassing unions with foreign crews.
I only wish aviation could one day get to the level that shipping is at.
Thanks for bringing that up 1ahrs but u couldn't be more
wrong about shipping in Australia...
u couldn't have missed the mark further if u tried...
Look at shipping... Exactly look at it...
To be technical crew on ANY ship operating in Australian waters -disregarding cargo - you MUST have an Aussie licence and MUST be a member of THE union - yeap just the one.
To operate larger ships in a higher position limitations are made based on your experience on a given tonnage and days in that position. No shortcut cadets here. Only path is do the hard yards do exams and be a member of the union. There is a massive shortage of drivers recently and the only way to rectify it is to hire or advance highly experienced personnel. Not cheapest cadet they can find or bypassing unions with foreign crews.
I only wish aviation could one day get to the level that shipping is at.
Thanks for bringing that up 1ahrs but u couldn't be more
wrong about shipping in Australia...
Last edited by Xcel; 28th Nov 2010 at 10:52.
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Interesting to see the ACTU's response - zip, as far as I'm aware. I wonder if that would be the case if it were a train driver or a wharfie that had been sacked. I guess there are unions, and then there are unions. As I recall, airline pilots got a similar response from the ACTU and the Labour government 21 years ago.