Rex rebuffs pilot training suggestions
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Did I just see the term 'Industrial Action' being used?? 
Somehow I don't think that is going to work on a few levels. Firstly, the public perception is that the average pilot, be it in a B767, A320 or C210 are overpaid and underworked (Thank-you Mr Hawke). Secondly, the Companies can very easily find very willing pilots to cover any shortage this 'Industrial Action' may bring (ring any bells?). Thirdly, it didn't work the first time, the pilot body today is still full of scabs willing to F*&# everyone else over just to climb up the greasy pole.
Call me cynical but that's just the way I see it.
Fuel-Off
Somehow I don't think that is going to work on a few levels. Firstly, the public perception is that the average pilot, be it in a B767, A320 or C210 are overpaid and underworked (Thank-you Mr Hawke). Secondly, the Companies can very easily find very willing pilots to cover any shortage this 'Industrial Action' may bring (ring any bells?). Thirdly, it didn't work the first time, the pilot body today is still full of scabs willing to F*&# everyone else over just to climb up the greasy pole. Call me cynical but that's just the way I see it.
Fuel-Off
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To stay in operation, the smaller operators would have no choice but to accept pilots from general aviation, with sufficient minimum hours but who may not have the desired skill level to be an airline pilot, it said.
I still can't get over that statement. I thought that was the whole point.
I still can't get over that statement. I thought that was the whole point.
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Getting back on topic, the only reason they are pushing for this increase in minimums, is because the yanks have done it. I would think it would slightly bolster the GA industry by keeping people in there longer to build hours.
It will create the illusion of flying being safer, when in actual fact it will do little to have any real benefit in an airline operation. Go and ask a QF 747-400 Captain who started out as a 200 cadet to quantify the benefits of spending 1000 hours in GA instead of of 1000 hours observing what happens in the flight deck of an airliner. It`s all relative
The comparison between the ADF and The REX cadetship is perhaps not as far fetched as some may suggest. Whilst for obvious reasons the ADF would have higher standards which is indicated by the failure rate, Both Involve a detailed recruitment process to find suitable candidates, and both require a high rate of learning and performance in a short period of time.
I`m certainly not having a crack at anyone who has cut their teeth in GA, but people need to put things into perspective. Training has come a long way in the last decade and resources could be better spent elsewhere improving our industry.
Just my thoughts
It will create the illusion of flying being safer, when in actual fact it will do little to have any real benefit in an airline operation. Go and ask a QF 747-400 Captain who started out as a 200 cadet to quantify the benefits of spending 1000 hours in GA instead of of 1000 hours observing what happens in the flight deck of an airliner. It`s all relative
The comparison between the ADF and The REX cadetship is perhaps not as far fetched as some may suggest. Whilst for obvious reasons the ADF would have higher standards which is indicated by the failure rate, Both Involve a detailed recruitment process to find suitable candidates, and both require a high rate of learning and performance in a short period of time.
I`m certainly not having a crack at anyone who has cut their teeth in GA, but people need to put things into perspective. Training has come a long way in the last decade and resources could be better spent elsewhere improving our industry.
Just my thoughts
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I didn't know Jim was a scientist and a pilot. Pretty talented.
He is a pretty talented guy even if you dont agree with him.
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There are Plenty of Experienced 1500 hr pilots out there
After Reading the press release I am sorry to say this is a load of B$..t.
In the last many many months I have come across many Aussie pilots who has more than the 1500 hrs and who has been overlooked by many companies in order to get cheap labour from the 200 hr pilots.These 1500 hrs have been from the same general aviation industry which had pay very less but many have stuck at it and have got the experience only to be told that no jobs for you because we want to take cadets which are cheaper by dozen.
where is it going to end
what do pilots with experience do ?
where can you go?
There is no Direct entry in the airlines anymore.
HOLD HOLD HOLD...................... Pool
In the last many many months I have come across many Aussie pilots who has more than the 1500 hrs and who has been overlooked by many companies in order to get cheap labour from the 200 hr pilots.These 1500 hrs have been from the same general aviation industry which had pay very less but many have stuck at it and have got the experience only to be told that no jobs for you because we want to take cadets which are cheaper by dozen.
where is it going to end
what do pilots with experience do ?
where can you go?
There is no Direct entry in the airlines anymore.
HOLD HOLD HOLD...................... Pool
'Go and ask a QF 747-400 Captain who started out as a 200 cadet to quantify the benefits of spending 1000 hours in GA instead of of 1000 hours observing what happens in the flight deck of an airliner. It`s all relative'
Are we talking about 1000 hours 'observing what happens' as an SO or FO? Learning on the job as an SO is one thing, as an FO is another altogether.
Are we talking about 1000 hours 'observing what happens' as an SO or FO? Learning on the job as an SO is one thing, as an FO is another altogether.
If you factor in the $12mil spent on the Academy Lester, I guess they're not. But that's not the real game is it, and you know this.
REX charge cadets for their training to CPL/MIR. If REX make a profit from this, then yes Cadets are cheaper than their direct entry counterparts. The big attraction with cadets is they are in fact a captive workforce. On the downside of course are the regulatory requirements prohibiting Cadets from effectively replacing the Captains that leave, 2 more this week incidently! REX are yet to address this issue, and probably never will.
The real money spinner for AAPA however will be the training of foreign students for overseas airlines, Big Dough!
Then there's REX's obligation to employ graduated Cadets. These more or less permanent F/O's have pretty much tied up the induction and training process, and there are stacks still in the wings! Is it any wonder that the finite pool of suitable and experienced candidates cannot get a look in with REX. My advice to those people, seek employment elswhere. Once the current political process runs it's course, you will probably be able to name your own job and price!
REX charge cadets for their training to CPL/MIR. If REX make a profit from this, then yes Cadets are cheaper than their direct entry counterparts. The big attraction with cadets is they are in fact a captive workforce. On the downside of course are the regulatory requirements prohibiting Cadets from effectively replacing the Captains that leave, 2 more this week incidently! REX are yet to address this issue, and probably never will.
The real money spinner for AAPA however will be the training of foreign students for overseas airlines, Big Dough!
Then there's REX's obligation to employ graduated Cadets. These more or less permanent F/O's have pretty much tied up the induction and training process, and there are stacks still in the wings! Is it any wonder that the finite pool of suitable and experienced candidates cannot get a look in with REX. My advice to those people, seek employment elswhere. Once the current political process runs it's course, you will probably be able to name your own job and price!
As far as I know Mr. Hat, two to VB and there was also an upgradable F/O called up by Jetstar. The latter had defered his Command upgrade in order to "do the right thing".
Not sure if we'll see numbers like 10-15 per month, if we do, then that would be extremely serious for REX. At the peak of the bloodletting in 07', REX lost about 22 in the month of July alone! At that time of course there was a certain amount of "fat" in the system. This time REX only need to lose a fraction of that number to result in significant flight cancellations.
IMHO, anything more than a quarter of the attrition of 07'/08' would be serious. anything more than half the 07'/08' rate would be a disaster!
Not sure if we'll see numbers like 10-15 per month, if we do, then that would be extremely serious for REX. At the peak of the bloodletting in 07', REX lost about 22 in the month of July alone! At that time of course there was a certain amount of "fat" in the system. This time REX only need to lose a fraction of that number to result in significant flight cancellations.
IMHO, anything more than a quarter of the attrition of 07'/08' would be serious. anything more than half the 07'/08' rate would be a disaster!
I know a young person who, when they found how little a RAAF trainee makes, let alone GA, decided that their $120K+/yr driving trucks was the better option.
Hey Mav, do you still have the name of that truck driving school? Truck Master, I think it is. I might need that.
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Let's get back on topic, please. There is already a thread running on cadetship and the merits or otherwise threreof.
Please keep contributions relevant to the inquiry.
Thanks.
Please keep contributions relevant to the inquiry.
Thanks.
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Is it just me or is our industry the only industry that reckons that training will/can replace experience?
Would Surgeons have the same opinion?
Do you reckon the FO on the QF 380 had 200 hours?
Training + Experience people.
Is it just me or do we gain extra brain capacity with experience?
Its time to cut the crap. The agenda here is DOLLARS.
Would Surgeons have the same opinion?
Do you reckon the FO on the QF 380 had 200 hours?
Training + Experience people.
Is it just me or do we gain extra brain capacity with experience?
Its time to cut the crap. The agenda here is DOLLARS.
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 5th Nov 2010 at 07:55.
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what would happen to the REX cadet scheme if this was put through? Also is it 1500 hours command time ?? Also would this result in a suspension of the jet star cadet scheme?
Mr Hat, I concur...
I know a reputable surgeon who laments that, as the government in his state tries to reduce hospital waiting lists by increasing the number of surgeons being trained, standards are slipping. Why? Because:
- there are actually no more operating theatres in which to operate, so
- no more patients can be operated on, so
- consequently, more surgical candidates share the same number of operations between them, but
- the course has not been lengthened, while
- interns see less trauma "action" than in the past because they're (rightly) not allowed to do more than 50 hours per week unlike the past and, therefore,
- start surgical training with less exposure to the profession, while
- the course has no minimum number of 'operations' to qualify, and finally
- candidates are approaching the end of their training with FAR less experience than was considered ideal just a few years ago.
The upshot is that even those who get through the training programme are far less competent than used to be the norm.
It's not just pilots!!!
- there are actually no more operating theatres in which to operate, so
- no more patients can be operated on, so
- consequently, more surgical candidates share the same number of operations between them, but
- the course has not been lengthened, while
- interns see less trauma "action" than in the past because they're (rightly) not allowed to do more than 50 hours per week unlike the past and, therefore,
- start surgical training with less exposure to the profession, while
- the course has no minimum number of 'operations' to qualify, and finally
- candidates are approaching the end of their training with FAR less experience than was considered ideal just a few years ago.
The upshot is that even those who get through the training programme are far less competent than used to be the norm.
It's not just pilots!!!
"Why do airlines require less hours to fly a fully loaded airliner than the NSW Govt demands to get a Provisional Drivers licence?"
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Strangely enough the resignation rates of ADF pilots are now at an historic low!
