Merged: Joe Eakins: Brave?....or....

[Gas Bags]

The man went out on a limb, totally unsupported, and without sound advice went public with what amounted to a voicing of his opinion regarding HIS employer and their future expansion.

What the hell did he think would happen!!!

So many posts go on about the mans eloquance, and how he was merely voicing the concerns of the masses. Oh, and that he is right in what he stated, in the press.

Tell me any industry or employer that would tolerate this kind of behaviour. He deserved to be sacked for what he did. The fact that what he did was wrong is evidenced in the total lack of numbers from within that stood up to be counted and follow in his footsteps.

He might be eloquent, but he is clearly a fool. Eloquence and intelligence are two very different things.

GB

[fridge magnet]

Tell me any industry or employer that would tolerate this kind of behaviour.

Medical industry just to begin. Doctors and nurses often whistleblow about poor administration affecting patient care.

He deserved to be sacked for what he did.

Well it appears even Jet* had a change of opinion on that one. They didn't rehire him out of the goodness of their hearts.

The fact that what he did was wrong is evidenced in the total lack of numbers from within that stood up to be counted and follow in his footsteps.

The beggining of this comment has no relationship to the end. Reads like a rant. The only numbers that count were the numbers of members that contribute and empower the association that provided him the services to deal with the situation.

[Gas Bags]

OK fridgey, over to you. Put your name to a similar article if you believe it was ok, then see what happens.

How exactly does what this guy did fall under the banner of being a "whistleblower"? There is nothing secret about Jetstars plans, they are out in the open. Are you trying to say that I can write anything I like as long as I hide behind the "whistleblower" name and expect no consequences. If thats what you think then you are not in this reality.

I have seen guys sacked for theft and gotten their jobs back by union intervention. The fact that Jetstar gave his job back does not mean he was right, it merely means that his reinstatement was negotiated with the union, and all negotiations are give and take.

My post was not a rant, but what I should have made clearer is that there are ways and there are means. The guy was a member of a union and he should have let them carry the flag instead of getting himself sacked. Whether he is right or he is wrong is irrelevant. Like I said, What did he expect to happen after authoring such an inflammatory article? Surely he had to understand that it would be read by all and sundry and that the reaction from Senior management of the Qantas group would be diametrically opposed to the reaction from the pilot masses, and as such they would focus in on the author.

He is very lucky to get his job back, but if it was me I would not have accepted those terms and put my name to the final newspiece. I would have fallen on my sword, moved on to other things, and held my head high.

GB

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

If ever there was / is a case for ALL pilots to belong to an effective union, perhaps / preferably - the SAME UNION - then, IMHO, this is a 'prime example'.

Having been a Union Rep dealing with the 'F*^# you' attitudes of 'some', then I can heartily endorse the suggestion.

It worked for us, in our time.....

Think 'outside the square'...CPSU..? TWU..? Whichever can do the BEST for you...

Cheers

[fridge magnet]

How exactly does what this guy did fall under the banner of being a "whistleblower"?

Wikipedia says
A whistleblower is a person who raises a concern about alleged wrongdoing occurring in an organization or body of people. Joe made it quite clear what he thinks is wrong with the Jet* plan.

OK fridgey, over to you. Put your name to a similar article if you believe it was ok, then see what happens.

I wouldn’t put my name to an article for a few reasons:
- I don’t work for Jet* and didn’t have an appreciation of what was going on until Joe hit the press.
- I never would have imagined it to be an effective strategy. But Jet*’s uncool response and Joe and AIPA’s resulting media coverage proved I would have been wrong about that. I would have expected a cool and confident response from Jet* and the issue to die very quickly.
- Joe has already done it! For me or his colleagues to follow it up would look very much like illegal industrial action which would definately be a bad move.

I have seen guys sacked for theft and gotten their jobs back by union intervention. The fact that Jetstar gave his job back does not mean he was right, it merely means that his reinstatement was negotiated with the union, and all negotiations are give and take.

Its not the union intervention and give and take that gets their job back. Its the expertise/force the union brings that highlights the employeees rights and the employers obligations UNDER THE LAW. The company eats humble pie because it costs them less than proceeding. QF have a long history of losing unfair dismissal cases for being unreasonable or harsh.

Anyone who wants to increase their understanding of unfair dismissal law and why Joe probably got his job back might like the following light reading. http://www.lexisnexis.com.au/aus/pro...s/ELB_13_8.pdf

He is very lucky to get his job back, but if it was me I would not have accepted those terms and put my name to the final newspiece. I would have fallen on my sword, moved on to other things, and held my head high.

I'm glad Joe chose to stay. His public statement was probably necesarry in law - one of the tests in unfair dismissal is whether a relationship can reasonably continue between the parties. He will be useful to help keep the industry sane. Hopefully you'll move onto another industry with an attitude like that - your not much use here!

[Ero-plano]

Fridge Magnet

That would be part of the commercial settlement decision and if any money was involved it will be confidential. I suspect the only big cost in this case so far was the damaging publicity for Jet* and some serious stress for Joe.

Seeings as Joe admitted guilt, why doesn't Joe pay his OWN legal bill rather than the AIPA membership? Setting this type of precedent where union members take the company to court (on the union memberships tab) can become quite costly.


Bilong longwe ples pailat

[fridge magnet]

Seeings as Joe admitted guilt, why doesn't Joe pay his OWN legal bill rather than the AIPA membership? Setting this type of precedent where union members take the company to court (on the union memberships tab) can become quite costly.

Ultimately a question for AIPA. But i think you have it the wrong way around. Jet* took action against Joe (they sacked him), and AIPA defended him which is their constitutional responsibility to defend members in such circumstances. If you are a member and get caught with pants down they will do the same for you - even if you have made mistakes.

Your assesment that Joe admitted quilt is wrong anyway. Here is what he said.

I never intended my comments to bring into question the sound and proactive safety culture that exists within Jetstar. “I apologise for any inference that might have been drawn from my comments that I was questioning Jetstar’s safety culture because that was certainly not my intention. “I acknowledge that I made public statements in regards to Jetstar’s safety system and its safe flying operations, its Pan Asian network growth strategy and the level of remuneration of Jetstar Pilots
employed in Singapore that could mislead the public and had the potential to damage Jetstar’s reputation. “This is something I did not intend and which I regret doing and Jetstar has accepted my apology for this.
“Jetstar does have appropriate avenues for line Pilots like myself to effectively communicate to all levels of the airline. I am now aware of the best and most effective way to do this.”

Note the language. He never admitted that what he did was wrong or he should have been sacked. He apologised and showed regret but actually said very little. He did not retract anything, just said he could have misled the public which was not his intention. He would do well in Canberra!

[Ero-plano]

I read English like any other other third generation aussie SMH reader. He admitted guilt either way you look at it, whether it was "Canberra" style or Cabramatta style.

I agree AIPA need to have a look at whose going to pick-up the tab.

[Arnold E]

I agree AIPA need to have a look at whose going to pick-up the tab.

Where are you comming from? Your not fair dinkum are you. Your suggesting that a person should join a union and then have that union only pay for any action that it sees fit to pay???
I smell a rat here.

[clear to land]

Arnold, you aren't the only one to smell a rat. New joiner too. The Union consists of the members, and is for the members (even if that means defending them for actions they took that you may/may not agree with). Mr Eakins should have the full support of his union for any action he did as long as it was not illegal according to law.

[Macchi 408]

Brave and most definitely lucky

I agree, this thread is an interesting one to read. Joe could have done things much differently - releasing a statement with AIPA would have had much more weight. But if every single one of us put ourselves in Joe's shoes, getting his job back would have been #1 priority. It's easy to say "he should have been sacked", but when you have a family to feed and care for that job was his security.

Olive61, you have got it in one. It'll be a while before we can fight this again, J* management are probably laughing now that they can use this as their weapon.

M408

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

. Olive61, you have got it in one. It'll be a while before we can fight this again, J* management are probably laughing now that they can use this as their weapon

This is not right guys. Joe has landed some heavy blows and if management want to continue fighting and use the statement to defend their position they will come off second best.

Now is the time to press these immoral actions of Jetstar. If you don't wages, conditions and standards will continue to be lowered and many Aussie pilots will be put out of work.

[Normasars]

ALAEA,

What you are proposing takes initiative, courage, cohesion and unity. Something foreign to OZ pilots.

This horse has bolted. Pilots in OZ are screwed forever. There was a chance and the opportunity was lost.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Our members felt the same a few years back. As it stands today, we may not win every battle but we sure as hell will go down fighting if they want to continue destroying our industry.

[Normasars]

The FUNDAMENTAL difference between Ngineers and Pilots is this. Pilots are prepared to fly for next to nudda because they LOVE to fly. Pilots in GA have forever flown for nothing or very close to it; sweeping hangar floors; being office boys or any type of lackie job that the "boss" could and would exploit them for. This mindset is then carried further to the "airlines" where said individuals are prepared to sell their grandmothers at the expense of colleagues in order to park their arse in the front seat of a multicrew aircraft.
Airline Managers know this and play on this FACT. Eventually there is nothing left to sell or give and we are left with the dysfunctional industry that we have today.
Things will change sometime. They will have too. But for me, the only thing that I can see that will turn it around is a smoking hole or two in the ground.

[Dark Knight]

ALAEA

Joe landed nothing copping naught but a noisy bloody nose in the process as did his Union.

You rightly suggest solidarity is of essence however, the last two and a bit decades clearly demonstrate this lot have little, if any backbone, being quite prepared to sell their grandmothers for sixpence.

[fridge magnet]

This mindset is then carried further to the "airlines"

Rubbish. Pilots behave like they do (and different to engineers) because this is the type of personality (on the average) that is attracted to piloting. Expecting pilots to change their personality en mass is as useful as telling a depressed person to cheer up.

G/A type operators have always made hay out of pilots weaknesses. Pilots are not in a position to practice any effective disobedience in the pointy end because their arse is strapped to the machine hurtling through the air. In G/A pilots cope by trying to move on as quickly as possible and hopefully end up with a quality operator as quick as possible. It has nothing to do with Grandmothers!

IT IS AIRLINE MANAGERS that have decided to carry the mindset of GA management into airlines - not the pilots. Point the finger at the right people. Our idiot managers think that there is no cost benefit to the quality methods developed by their predecessors. I think you are right that nothing short of smoking hole in the ground will turn this around. Idiot airline management appears to viral and highly contagious.

Good on Joe for having a go at pointing a few things out.

[Dark Knight]

Should one read their history of management/pilot industrial relations it will be clear it was always thus including going back to the very beginning in the thirties.

There has been a time when pilot salaries and working conditions improved markedly, pilots had some semblance of control of their daily working lives with good salaries. This was achieved with good forward thinking leadership, a leadership with an ability to adapt supported with strong, united membership support.

Airline Management (but not all) always attempted to undermine this solidarity with little success until the days of Lorenzo, Braniff and Continental from whence the management tactics of attack and division spread accompanied by de-regulation coupled with Government(s) collusion and support.

Membership support was divided from within allowing management to gain the upper hand fully exploiting the division, animosity and hatred between the groups and individual pilots. A situation management fully exploitis today and will continue to exploit until a fully, totally dedicated, comprehensively pilot group stands up to them come hell or high water.

Whilst the sentiment`he had to get his job back, a job he to support and care and support his family' are expressed management sits back, relaxes, another cigar and glass of claret whilst they review the bottom line.

Joe should have either been slaughtered as the sacrificial lamb on the alter (which in reality is exactly what is happening) or his `fellow' hard done by pilots should have stood management on their asses telling them until normality is restored, nothing moves!

However,with their demonstrated history, it ain't gunna happen with this lot!

[ratpoison]

Dark Knight,
Somebody buy that man a drink. Took the words right out of the horses mouth

[KRUSTY 34]

Truer words have never been spoken Dark Knight.

Currently reading A FEDERATION OF PILOTS. Absolutely compulsory reading for any professional aviator IMHO. I particularily like the statement from the PREFACE: "Since the organisation's formation in 1938, the federation has fought to protect pilots from the exploitation that arises simply because they love their work."

This of course goes to the heart of much of our problems, but as the pilots from the 30's eventually came to grips with, to be a true professional you have to grow up some time, and deny the enemy the ammunition with which they will gladly use against you. Ironically it was the misdeeds by managements of the past that became the catalyst for change. Whether or not todays generation of pilots have the "ticker" of their forebears, remains to be seen. I suspect we will come through, but only if the mistakes of the past are not forgotten, lest we be doomed to repeat them!