Taking on Emirates in their own background
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 509
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QANTAS had traffic rights via Bahrain to Europe for years, what happened to those?
Not daily. Qantas needs daily and direct. There is no point adding an extra stop on the way via SIN or HKG because the equipment cannot operate non-stop from MEL to the Middle East - including considering the issue of weight restrictions that may limit passengers or cargo, in particular cargo.
the yields are also probably quite low but they have the wherewthal to absorb it - for now.
Let's not forget that Etihad are yet to turn a profit. Unprofitable for 5 or 6 years now...Any other airline business share-holder run would be out-of-business. So the question must be asked; if they can continue to operate, buy more aircraft and spend on product, yet run a loss, then one must ask where the money is coming from and what the agenda's are...These Middle Eastern destinations will eventually run out of oil. What will form the countries GDP? Tourism. That's all they'll have so what better way then to dump as many souls into their states as possible to spend, spend, spend...It's more about Government policy/agenda's then actually running a profitable business...
I'd go as far as to question EK's books too. How you can spend so much capital on new aircraft as they have is beyond belief...How are they financing this? they'd certainly not be capturing premium yield considering they price well below Qantas and many other carriers...
There is more to it then what's portrayed.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dununda
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adding a Stop?
Why not Sydney Bahrain and then onto Europe.?
Bahrain was essentially a tech stop for the 747 200s to uplift fuel
The skill set at QF is essentially domestic.They will always have difficulty growing an international airline.
Bahrain was essentially a tech stop for the 747 200s to uplift fuel
The skill set at QF is essentially domestic.They will always have difficulty growing an international airline.
Middle Eastern Airlines are not there just to be commercially viable and turn a profit. As long as we need to keep buying oil from the Arabs they'll have the money to run at a loss.
Dubai is planning for when their oil runs out, they want to be a world business center - Singapore in the Middle East. An airline serving the world will help them achieve this and eventually contribute to Dubai Incorporated
Abu Dhabi has plenty of oil and the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world. It can't be upstaged by Dubai so starts an airline Etihad, to rival Emirates. If it turns a profit, great. If not even, British Airways scale losses are only a few days interest earned by their US $800 billion government portfolio.
A few years ago most people wouldn't have been able to find QATAR on a map. Now every body's heard of QATAR Airways and their numerous awards.The sheik can hold his head up at the Arab summit meetings and with their massive LNG reserves he can afford to stay in the "arms race".
Just be grateful Saudi Arabian haven't jumped on the band wagon. Older equipment (but big orders in), no alcohol and an aversion to western tourists visiting the Kingdom hold them back. But with their oil reserves there's no time limit on how long they can stay in the game.
Airlines such as Egypt Air, Royal Jordanian, Oman Air etc either lack the financial muscle, capability or the will to join in. As long as they can serve neighbouring countries, migrant labour sources, the major shopping and financial centers in Europe and a long range destination or two in North America or the Far East they'll be happy.
Dubai is planning for when their oil runs out, they want to be a world business center - Singapore in the Middle East. An airline serving the world will help them achieve this and eventually contribute to Dubai Incorporated
Abu Dhabi has plenty of oil and the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world. It can't be upstaged by Dubai so starts an airline Etihad, to rival Emirates. If it turns a profit, great. If not even, British Airways scale losses are only a few days interest earned by their US $800 billion government portfolio.
A few years ago most people wouldn't have been able to find QATAR on a map. Now every body's heard of QATAR Airways and their numerous awards.The sheik can hold his head up at the Arab summit meetings and with their massive LNG reserves he can afford to stay in the "arms race".
Just be grateful Saudi Arabian haven't jumped on the band wagon. Older equipment (but big orders in), no alcohol and an aversion to western tourists visiting the Kingdom hold them back. But with their oil reserves there's no time limit on how long they can stay in the game.
Airlines such as Egypt Air, Royal Jordanian, Oman Air etc either lack the financial muscle, capability or the will to join in. As long as they can serve neighbouring countries, migrant labour sources, the major shopping and financial centers in Europe and a long range destination or two in North America or the Far East they'll be happy.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not sure a lot of the posters here grasp what is going on. Lots of people are under the impression that ME airlines are created (and run at a loss) for various reasons such as diversification of economy/promotion of the place/because they can...
The fact is they don't have to grow them organically, like a normal business. They have the resources to fast-track them to huge. But to think they are not going to make money is just wrong (EK already makes more than a BILLION (!) dollars annually). They are growing the cake, whilst QF stagnates - QFs own annual report says as much. QF keeps operating the same amount of seats, but the total amount of seats sold is growing at a great rate. Not just flown- but sold. The loads on every carrier out of oz are terrific- ask the pilots on this forum who fly them. I fly to and from the ME regularly, and there is never more than the odd empty seat. Im usually one of half a dozen who get off in the ME- so, yes, the traffic is almost all onwards to Europe (or elsewhere). But exactly what has QF done to protect it's market? Anything at all?
Dismissing the ME carriers as a flash in the pan that will die away "when the oil runs out" is going to lead to a lot of disappointment. At least they hire lots of us aussies.
The fact is they don't have to grow them organically, like a normal business. They have the resources to fast-track them to huge. But to think they are not going to make money is just wrong (EK already makes more than a BILLION (!) dollars annually). They are growing the cake, whilst QF stagnates - QFs own annual report says as much. QF keeps operating the same amount of seats, but the total amount of seats sold is growing at a great rate. Not just flown- but sold. The loads on every carrier out of oz are terrific- ask the pilots on this forum who fly them. I fly to and from the ME regularly, and there is never more than the odd empty seat. Im usually one of half a dozen who get off in the ME- so, yes, the traffic is almost all onwards to Europe (or elsewhere). But exactly what has QF done to protect it's market? Anything at all?
Dismissing the ME carriers as a flash in the pan that will die away "when the oil runs out" is going to lead to a lot of disappointment. At least they hire lots of us aussies.
Huge size doesn't necessarily equal huge profits, just look at British Airways. Obviously the owners would rather be in the black ink than the red and their business plans are likely to aim for that at some stage.
However they have the resources behind them to ride out many negative years which would send other airlines to the wall and if it doesn't work out no one gets his house reposessed.
Huge resources enabling top people to be hired straight away, brand new aircraft and a clean sheet of paper to start on. Add a base with cheap labour, favourable laws and government backing. Tough competition.
However they have the resources behind them to ride out many negative years which would send other airlines to the wall and if it doesn't work out no one gets his house reposessed.
Huge resources enabling top people to be hired straight away, brand new aircraft and a clean sheet of paper to start on. Add a base with cheap labour, favourable laws and government backing. Tough competition.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and even if the argument that they will 'run out of oil' one day holds true the damage done in the mean time to the likes of QF and other 'genuine, profit based airlines' could be terminal. If they outlast the competition they'll start to prove themselves viable by default.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dubai
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
T-vasis..
EK and the Dubai government regularly promte the 'open skies' policy of Dubai. Many airlines use Dubai as a stopover on the way to Europe. Singapore and Cathay to name just 2 off the top of my head..
EK and the Dubai government regularly promte the 'open skies' policy of Dubai. Many airlines use Dubai as a stopover on the way to Europe. Singapore and Cathay to name just 2 off the top of my head..
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: london
Age: 48
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Singapore and Cathay to name just 2 off the top of my head..
If Qantas was serious, they would operate to Dubai and then use the JSA and Codeshare agreements they have with other airlines to offer passengers destinations in Europe. But I guess I am dreaming as expansion and innovation no longer form part of the mainline dictionary.
Moreover, what is the point of having an "Airport of the future" when the passengers still end up on the same old jets.
Correct. CX pax flights to Europe are non-stop from Hong Kong. Dubai, Bahrain, Jeddah, Riyadh still a big pax destination from HKG in their own right though.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember many moons ago sitting in my accountants office as he was trying to pass some wisdom to me: "Look, you are making lots of money atm, but you have to decide- are you going to run this business as a cash cow, and just take the money out, or are you going to run it for the long term? If it's a cash cow, it wont be here in 5 years, so you need to plan for that. If you want to keep it, you need to make substantial re-investment every year". I didn't believe him. He was right (I took the cash cow option). Every time I think about QF, I think back to that speech in his office (of course QF international will still be here in 5 years. Won't it?).
ME carriers are playing on the globalisation and liberalisation of the industry and routes, knowing full well that most punters are not travelling to Dubai, Abu Dhabi etc. So as stated here they are moving in on other market pairings that have been dominated by established carriers for years.
However l think Oneworld is probably the biggest restriction QF have on any expansion.
It appears to me that EK don't need an alliance, and indeed know it's detrimental to any expansion. I think Jet* know this too
halas
However l think Oneworld is probably the biggest restriction QF have on any expansion.
It appears to me that EK don't need an alliance, and indeed know it's detrimental to any expansion. I think Jet* know this too
halas
Personally when I am going to fly long haul I look for the shortest flight. If you live on the east coast of Aus, it is quickest to go via SIN or HKG. If you live in PER it is quickest to go via DXB. I tend to think all QF is doing is putting the capacity where most of the population centres lie on the shortest route.
SYD → HKG → LHR = 9208nm
SYD → SIN → LHR = 9291nm
SYD → DXB → LHR = 9488nm
MEL → HKG → LHR = 9227nm
MEL → SIN → LHR = 9108nm
MEL → DXB → LHR = 9279nm
BNE → HKG → LHR = 8967nm
BNE → SIN → LHR = 9210nm
BNE → DXB → LHR = 9451nm
PER → HKG → LHR = 8483nm
PER → SIN → LHR = 8000nm
PER → DXB → LHR = 7864nm
SYD → SIN → LHR = 9291nm
SYD → DXB → LHR = 9488nm
MEL → HKG → LHR = 9227nm
MEL → SIN → LHR = 9108nm
MEL → DXB → LHR = 9279nm
BNE → HKG → LHR = 8967nm
BNE → SIN → LHR = 9210nm
BNE → DXB → LHR = 9451nm
PER → HKG → LHR = 8483nm
PER → SIN → LHR = 8000nm
PER → DXB → LHR = 7864nm
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah but a/c don't fly a strict 'great circle'. More to flight planning than that.
Also, as a pax, "shortest flight" will mean shortest stop between legs, or shortest total time. Thats what I look for. You also assume (in a very QF way) that everyone wants to go to LHR. Take a look at, say, a journey to ANZAC day at Gallipoli. SY/MEL/BRI/PER to Istanbul. One stop to Istanbul via the ME....
Also, as a pax, "shortest flight" will mean shortest stop between legs, or shortest total time. Thats what I look for. You also assume (in a very QF way) that everyone wants to go to LHR. Take a look at, say, a journey to ANZAC day at Gallipoli. SY/MEL/BRI/PER to Istanbul. One stop to Istanbul via the ME....
ferris
I am very well aware of that. Flight planning is usually filed to produce a minimum fuel burn and time combination. North/South flights generally follow very close to a great circle route, airways allowing for this. West to East will generally flight plan to follow a prevailing jet stream. East to West will generally file to avoid the prevailing jet stream. Airline schedules for airlines routing to LHR will confirm my view that DXB is only really beneficial from PER. I have only used LHR as a reference point. Other European destinations follow the same logic.
For the record I’m not QF. I’m CX.
Yeah but a/c don't fly a strict 'great circle'. More to flight planning than that.
For the record I’m not QF. I’m CX.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airline schedules for airlines routing to LHR will confirm my view that DXB is only really beneficial from PER.
This is where frequency and connections come into play. If your particular airline serves where you want to go two or three times a day the your connection is likely to be shorter. Two hours is about right if you already have next sectors boarding pass in hand, your not pushed if you arrive half an hour late and you have time for a comfortable stroll around, perhaps a shower or some shopping and back on board.
Also the desirability of a stop over on route needs considering. Singapore, Dubai and Hong Kong have plenty to see and do during a 24/36/48 hour journey break. Singapore's Changi is a lovely airport to spend time in and I make a point of arriving early just to look around. There is a transit hotel air side and an eight hour break would be quite comfortable en route from Australia to Europe, a few hours sleep in a real bed, nice hot shower and change of clothes, dinner, film, gym are available.
However Qatar or Abu Dhabi leave a bit to be desired at the moment and more than about three hours would be quite tedious.
Also the desirability of a stop over on route needs considering. Singapore, Dubai and Hong Kong have plenty to see and do during a 24/36/48 hour journey break. Singapore's Changi is a lovely airport to spend time in and I make a point of arriving early just to look around. There is a transit hotel air side and an eight hour break would be quite comfortable en route from Australia to Europe, a few hours sleep in a real bed, nice hot shower and change of clothes, dinner, film, gym are available.
However Qatar or Abu Dhabi leave a bit to be desired at the moment and more than about three hours would be quite tedious.
404,
GC distances are one measure but probably the most accurate measure is scheduled block times added to transit times. There are sometimes fudges to suit slots (or to get better punctuality,or fiddle a crew duty day isssue) but my understanding is that most carriers use seasonal blocktimes based on experience to something like the 65th percentile.
GC distances are one measure but probably the most accurate measure is scheduled block times added to transit times. There are sometimes fudges to suit slots (or to get better punctuality,or fiddle a crew duty day isssue) but my understanding is that most carriers use seasonal blocktimes based on experience to something like the 65th percentile.
ferris
Looking at last nights weather charts would indicate that flight planning via Afghanistan or Iran would have been unfavourable with a jet stream of about 100 knots at FL380 from a NW’ly direction. It would make sense for these flights to have flight planned further west to avoid this and then encounter it later on and for a briefer period of time with the wind at roughly 90° to flight plan track.
Ken Borough
I actually said something to that effect when I said:
Then explain why every single one (QF, SIA, Thai etc.) all flew over DXB last night?
Ken Borough
GC distances are one measure but probably the most accurate measure is scheduled block times added to transit times.
Airline schedules for airlines routing to LHR will confirm my view that DXB is only really beneficial from PER.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Pointy End
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SQ and CX into UAE
As far as SQ flights into DXB and AUH, they do a lot of freighters but have also over the years operated passenger SIN - DXB - CAI and SIN - AUH - JED returns on B777 and A330. Don't know if that is still happening. CX used to operate a HKG - BOM - DXB return on the B777 a few years ago as well.
With the UAE open sky policy it seems that any airline can operate through DXB/AUH to wherever they want, am not sure of fifth freedom rights though.
With the UAE open sky policy it seems that any airline can operate through DXB/AUH to wherever they want, am not sure of fifth freedom rights though.