Automation and our Regulator.
Thread Starter
Automation and our Regulator.
The ATSB report on the Boeing 717 incident at Darwin on 7 February 2008 (over two years ago!) has been published. See here:
Hard landing - Darwin Airport, Northern Territory, 7 February 2008, VH-NXE, Boeing Company 717–200
AO-2008-007
Two years to get out a report on a hard landing - makes you wonder doesn't it?
Despite that, the report is worth reading for those pilots recently recruited for Jetstar and Virgin Blue. Basically the first officer made an unstable approach at night in marginal weather conditions and allowed the automatic throttle to close back to idle just before the late flare and this resulted in an extremely hard landing which caused significant damage. The final approach was too high to enable the automatic pilot to capture the glide slope and apart from considering a go-around, the crew decided to fly half manually half automatics. In other words the first officer attempted to hand fly the approach while leaving the automatic throttle system to handle the speed.
Apparently this was the FCOM recommended combination. A rapid close in high rate of descent near the flare caused the throttles to go to idle when an immediate over-riding of the autothrottle may have prevented the ensuing hard touch down. Interestingly, and in marked contrast to the 717 procedure, Boeing 737 FCOM's recommend if flying an approach manually, the autothrottle should be switched off altogether and the throttles operated manually.
A letter was recently received by Captain John McCormick, the CASA Director of Aviation Safety, that reiterated long held international and local concerns that pilot manual flying skills have been steadily degraded by the accent on automation. A solution was proposed that hand flying in simulators should be increased.
In a reply on the Director's behalf, the Director's public relations officer made the valid point that there were several legislative requirements for pilots to maintain manual flying skills and these included instrument rating and proficiency tests. In essence, the Director could see no evidence that accent on automation interfered with a pilot's manual flight skills. Further to that, the Director felt there were sufficient opportunities for flight crew to maintain hand flying skills in training and checking and line training. In other words, there was no problem.
Regarding automation, the Director was of the opinion that CASA does see opportunities for continued training and awareness to be provided to pilots in the use, system design and limitations of automation. Some would interpret that statement as meaning automation knowledge is primary with hand flying skills secondary.
It is comforting to know that concerns raised here and overseas regarding degradation of pilot handling skills, are thus not shared by CASA. The Regulator has spoken. But just in case you doubt his pronouncements on the matter, keep watching this space for future ATSB reports.
Hard landing - Darwin Airport, Northern Territory, 7 February 2008, VH-NXE, Boeing Company 717–200
AO-2008-007
Two years to get out a report on a hard landing - makes you wonder doesn't it?
Despite that, the report is worth reading for those pilots recently recruited for Jetstar and Virgin Blue. Basically the first officer made an unstable approach at night in marginal weather conditions and allowed the automatic throttle to close back to idle just before the late flare and this resulted in an extremely hard landing which caused significant damage. The final approach was too high to enable the automatic pilot to capture the glide slope and apart from considering a go-around, the crew decided to fly half manually half automatics. In other words the first officer attempted to hand fly the approach while leaving the automatic throttle system to handle the speed.
Apparently this was the FCOM recommended combination. A rapid close in high rate of descent near the flare caused the throttles to go to idle when an immediate over-riding of the autothrottle may have prevented the ensuing hard touch down. Interestingly, and in marked contrast to the 717 procedure, Boeing 737 FCOM's recommend if flying an approach manually, the autothrottle should be switched off altogether and the throttles operated manually.
A letter was recently received by Captain John McCormick, the CASA Director of Aviation Safety, that reiterated long held international and local concerns that pilot manual flying skills have been steadily degraded by the accent on automation. A solution was proposed that hand flying in simulators should be increased.
In a reply on the Director's behalf, the Director's public relations officer made the valid point that there were several legislative requirements for pilots to maintain manual flying skills and these included instrument rating and proficiency tests. In essence, the Director could see no evidence that accent on automation interfered with a pilot's manual flight skills. Further to that, the Director felt there were sufficient opportunities for flight crew to maintain hand flying skills in training and checking and line training. In other words, there was no problem.
Regarding automation, the Director was of the opinion that CASA does see opportunities for continued training and awareness to be provided to pilots in the use, system design and limitations of automation. Some would interpret that statement as meaning automation knowledge is primary with hand flying skills secondary.
It is comforting to know that concerns raised here and overseas regarding degradation of pilot handling skills, are thus not shared by CASA. The Regulator has spoken. But just in case you doubt his pronouncements on the matter, keep watching this space for future ATSB reports.
Last edited by Centaurus; 15th May 2010 at 06:07.
Thread Starter
Thanks for the info. The ATSB subscribers website sent me the report a few days ago and it was called:
Aviation Safety Investigation Report - Final
Hard landing - Darwin Airport, Northern Territory, 7 February 2008, VH-NXE, Boeing Company 717–200.. Maybe the 2009 report was the Preliminary Report?
Aviation Safety Investigation Report - Final
Hard landing - Darwin Airport, Northern Territory, 7 February 2008, VH-NXE, Boeing Company 717–200.. Maybe the 2009 report was the Preliminary Report?
The 717 FCOM allows for the autothrottles to be used if autopilot is off. It doesn't mean that I let it do ALL the work and not monitor the airspeed trend.
Similarly both 777 and 787 FCTM state (identical wording)
... different rules for different aircraft.
The 717 is not really a Boeing
and it definitely is NOT a 737.
Similarly both 777 and 787 FCTM state (identical wording)
Autothrottle use is recommended during all phases of flight. When in manual
flight, autothrottle use is also recommended, however manual thrust control may be used to maintain pilot proficiency.
flight, autothrottle use is also recommended, however manual thrust control may be used to maintain pilot proficiency.
The 717 is not really a Boeing
and it definitely is NOT a 737.
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Ah such prose from the Regulator.
I can't believe the management can be so naive. Do they honestly think that non-auto handling skills are at the required level. Try watching sim session or two and see how they are handled.
And if I hear again "but they are certified" I have to ask.....Ho hum.........certified yes but in reality for what?
There are many redundant systems calculated to 10-7/8 and they are framed beautifully by out airworthiness colleagues. The same redundancy should be applied to the "last ditch" system - the handling pilot.
It is not long before this country will see the product of box ticking and total auto-flight and the result of a lowering of overall handling skills.........and that means "polling".
I can't believe the management can be so naive. Do they honestly think that non-auto handling skills are at the required level. Try watching sim session or two and see how they are handled.
And if I hear again "but they are certified" I have to ask.....Ho hum.........certified yes but in reality for what?
There are many redundant systems calculated to 10-7/8 and they are framed beautifully by out airworthiness colleagues. The same redundancy should be applied to the "last ditch" system - the handling pilot.
It is not long before this country will see the product of box ticking and total auto-flight and the result of a lowering of overall handling skills.........and that means "polling".
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Never liked the idea of manual flying with the A/T connected. This makes life particularly difficult with underslung engines due to the relatively large pitch changes with thrust changes. Some airlines approve the practice some dont - I never did. In addition when concentrating on the manual handling there can be some mode confusion with the A/T engaged, generally in the flare regime.
Last edited by 4Greens; 15th May 2010 at 10:20.
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When in manual
flight, autothrottle use is also recommended, however manual thrust control may be used to maintain pilot proficiency.
flight, autothrottle use is also recommended, however manual thrust control may be used to maintain pilot proficiency.
Wurger
4greens:
"This makes life particularly difficult with underslung engines due to the relatively large pitch changes with thrust changes."
Really? Perhaps on the B737-200, barely noticeable on later marks of 737 or on any of the B747's, and of course totally eliminated in the B777.
I'm also confused about the alleged mode confusion during the flare.
"This makes life particularly difficult with underslung engines due to the relatively large pitch changes with thrust changes."
Really? Perhaps on the B737-200, barely noticeable on later marks of 737 or on any of the B747's, and of course totally eliminated in the B777.
I'm also confused about the alleged mode confusion during the flare.
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The 717 auto throttle system always seemed a bit slow in increasing and then reducing the power.I found it best to leave the autothrottle on and overide it simply by moving the throttles either forward or back.The beauty of it was that the autothrottle would not disconnect when doing so.The important thing was like any other aircraft with automation, if its not doing what you want it to do then intervene and make it.
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The important thing was like any other aircraft with automation, if its not doing what you want it to do then intervene and make it.
As the aircraft was on autopilot locked onto the ILS neither pilot noticed the split throttles for at least a minute.
Tee-emm, while your sim buddies got "sim-killed", but these poor bastards really did get the chop from exactly the same thing.
Bloggs, your lot fly me to Perth once a month and I've noticed big power changes on the approach resulting in an unsettling accelerate/decelerate oscillation. What's going on here? Is it the autothrottle playing a losing game of catchup?
Aerocat, it's hard to say, but the ATS is savage when it needs to be and graceful at other times. An excellent system. You'd have to give more details about where you were, config, eg level in circuit at BME? If ATC hold us up and we've already started configuring, the speed comes back quickly and the ATS will react "positively". Level in a bouncy circuit will produce large amounts of power quickly, followed just as quickly by a large power reduction. All depends on the rate of speed decrease. I've never had the ATS get itself into a "PIO" though.
Of course, if the ATS is out, then a sudden large power increase may be indicative of the need for a bit-closer speed monitoring, if you get my drift!
As they say in the classics, "practice makes perfect".
Of course, if the ATS is out, then a sudden large power increase may be indicative of the need for a bit-closer speed monitoring, if you get my drift!
As they say in the classics, "practice makes perfect".
I've only really noticed it going in to Perth on final approach, probably in the last 1000' feet or so before touchdown, fully configured as far as I can tell. Perth tends to be gusty doesn't it, so maybe it's related to that. Some of my colleagues have commented on it as well. It's distinctive enough that we assume it's something to do with the aircraft type as it's not something we've experienced on other types. Don't take it as criticism, I'm just curious as to why it feels less stable in speed to us sitting in the back.
I just don't know Aerocat. It does give a few good squirts of power now and again, but they have been necessary. You should move into business class away from the noise. That'll make it less noticeable. 
Er Bloggs, you do fly the B717 don't you? Have always had it my head that you do but just realized you might not. If so, what business class 
? If not, disregard all.
? If not, disregard all.
The only business class in my machine is Row Zero.