Qantas QF453 SYD-MEL Boeing 767 tailstrike on Mon 1-Feb-10

[TeachMe]

fi crew "As for talking to pax after some kind of incidents happen. It should be banned. Most of them are to stupid to talk. There comments confirm that. Same thing goes for some of the reporters their knowledge is"

Rather find your attitude to passengers to be less than nice. Criticize the papers for reporting stupid stuff as it is their job to be responsible, but it is not a passenger's job to even know what is normal. Who knows, the passenger may have even been mis-quoted.

[RenegadeMan]

Are yes Akali, glad to see you're having a laugh too. That photo in PEK is going to make for a very interesting story as to why the pilots continued when it looks as though the tailstrike is so obvious.

For those that haven't seen it look here:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Austrian-Airlines/Boeing-767-3Z9-ER/1646611/M/

Here's another interesting point. If an aircraft tailstrikes whilst taking off in a strong crosswind could the damage be greater because the tail's experienced sideways movement during the skid (i.e. aircraft commences a yaw as the nose comes up and the tail gets scraped along the tarmac and a little sideways at the same time)?

[Fris B. Fairing]

This kind of problem didn't occur with DC3s.

No but some of them had nose strikes

[blueloo]

FWIW the rotate between the GE 767 and RR 767 feels fairly different.

The GE's generally leap of the ground, whilst the RRs feel like your dragging the thing off.

No one can explain why definitively - other than the RRs appear to come closer to tailstrikes than the GE because of this strange difference.

The best guess they can come up with is that for an equivalent (calculated) thrust/derate the 76GEs are generally pushing out more thrust (other thoughts include rigging differences, slower engine response, engine weight). Many guys add a few extra degrees thrust derate (thats poorly worded - but they add thrust) to the RR to help compensate - especially in gusty conditions - as most have a tendency in x- strong winds to want to get the thing off the ground quickly.

[TyroPicard]

Taildragger67
I think your question is impossible to answer - in the tailstrike arena Airbus will still be in Direct law. I suggest it depends entirely on pilot skill.

[4Greens]

The 767 is prone to a tailstrike if you rotate too quickly which is why it has a little skid gizmo fitted at the back. You dont damage the actual skin of the aircraft.

[etrang]

It should be banned. Most of them are to stupid to talk. There comments confirm that.

Where has a passenger said something stupid in this case? She simply said the cabin crew were in their seats when it happened, ie. that it happened very early in the flight.

That stupid passenger probably also knows the difference between "their" and "there".

[Keg]

Still do not understand why pilots have no "feel" for what the a/c is doing & an awareness of tail strike body angles on & just after lift off.

The 'feel' differs greatly depending on how accurate the trim setting has been calculated. That can also change the initial rate of rotate as well as the response to it.

SASKATOON, when lightly loaded most CSMs make announcements regarding passengers remaining in assigned seating until after take off. It probably still occurs to a certain extent and as I said before, inaccurate trim can contribute to a tail strike. It may have been a factor but I'd be surprised if we ever had enough information to know.

Someone once said to me that tailstrikes on the 767 are a bit like gear up landings in lighties, those that have and those that will. I personally don't subscribe to that theory but I also acknowledge that aviation is a dynamic environment and that things like this can happen to the best of us even when we get most things right.

[dghob]

Just imagine the tone of this thread had it have been Jetstar that had struck a tail! All the usual suspects would be salivating.. Ultergra et al

Beat me to it titan. An Asian airline might have faired even worse.

[framer]

The 'feel' differs greatly depending on how accurate the trim setting has been calculated. That can also change the initial rate of rotate as well as the response to it.

I'm not 100% convinced that that answers IcePacks question. I can imagine how tailstrikes can occur to anyone under certain combinations of conditions, however, saying that "the feel differs greatly" is sort of making his argument......you can feel it. If you start a rotation with the normal backpressure and the nose leaps up quicker than normal you "feel it" and reduce the backpressure until the rate is what you want.....yeah?
I don't want to be seen as criticizing this crew in any way...who knows what went on, anyway, they did the right thing after the event and nobody is permanently worse off.

[framer]

ps .......were there large gusts and crosswind at the time?

[Keg]

If you start a rotation with the normal backpressure and the nose leaps up quicker than normal you "feel it" and reduce the backpressure until the rate is what you want.....yeah?

Yeah...and no. Sometimes the 'reduce the backpressure' is actually a 'forward check'. However, now you're in a situation where the 'normal' things like the 'normal' force you utilise, the 'normal' attitude you are for a given speed, etc is all different. You need to re-start the rate of change again and this time utilise a force that is 'less' than what was before and is decidely not normal. In these circumstances, like being in cloud, what you 'feel' may not be accurate.

I guess my point is that 'feeling' the rotate works under 'normal' circumstances. As soon as something is not normal (like the trim being out) then the subsequent feeling becomes more of a case of trial, error, and experience. EG: I recall flying a 767 more than a decade ago where the trim was so far out (rearward) that I needed forward pressure to keep the nose on the ground and maintained that forward pressure throughout the rotate until I could sort out the trim after becoming airborne. (Long boring story as to why and something that I won't go into on PPRUNE). Perhaps that makes the 'feel' case but given how different it felt to normal it could have easily resulted in a tail scrape.

[Offcut]

Taildragger67,

I'm also not trying to start an Airbus/Boeing slagfest but modern Boeings do have tailstrike protection. The 777 will protect you, however, if you really want to leave your mark on the tarmac you can just keep pulling to over-ride it. The 767/747's are pretty old technology now. Correct me if I'm wrong but both were designed in the 70's/ early 80's. The 777 and no doubt the 787 offer full flight envelope protection but the pilot always has the option to over-ride it simply with control/thrust lever inputs.

[Capt Kremin]

Just imagine the tone of this thread had it have been Jetstar that had struck a tail!

Do Jetstar fly the 767? If Jetstar did strike a tail, particularly an A330, yes there would have been an uproar because no-one has ever had an A330 tailstrike.

There have been plenty with 767's however. Particularly in gusty crosswinds.

Too many naked agendas on PPRUNE these days.

[framer]

Keg, I think we are on the same page. I flew medium size jets in Asia for a year or so and often the trim would be out....still in the band, but out. I often found myslef doing exactly as you decribed and "modifying" my rotation to get the correct rate.Basically what you described with your trim story is what IcePack is saying.....you "felt" that it was wrong, you flew the plane in a manner that produced the required result.

I guess my point is that 'feeling' the rotate works under 'normal' circumstances.

I think you make a good case for 'feeling' the rotate working under abnormal circumstances
Have a good one , Framer

[Back Seat Driver]

Capt K. point of order with regards your statement

....because no-one has ever had an A330 tailstrike

There has been one that I know of at EDDF Air Canada 875

[Taildragger67]

Tyro and Offcut,

Thanks gents.

[bushy]

They will have to start putting tail wheels on them!

[Neptunus Rex]

Back Seat Driver

The Air Canada A330 was rotated 24 knots below Vr! That is a recipe for a tail strike on any aircraft and, at the time, was the first recorded A330 tail strike in over 700,000 take-offs.

[Capt Kremin]

Titan Urectum, QF have had the 767 for almost 25 years now. Hundreds of thousands of sectors into places like the US, Hong Kong including 12 years of operations into Kai Tak, Japan, India, Thailand........

I could count the tailstrikes in that times on the fingers of one hand. When Jetstar have the same amount of sectors on the A321, lets compare notes.

Until then, try and keep that chip on your shoulder balanced.