Aussie Jetstar workers held in Vietnam
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The JQ execs need not worry though, they are a protected species in the Qantas group and regardless of any incompetence or illegal behaviour they will not be held accountable.
We all (should) enjoy the company's protection so long as we have done nothing wrong. But if these two have acted against the advice/direction of the board then surley all bets must be off.
Sadly Moh, I think you're right.
Will they be sacked?....doubt it.
Will they get to keep their bonuses?....probably.
Will their stellar-like airline careers continue to flourish?.......hmm, that could be an entirely different story.
The JQ execs need not worry though, they are a protected species in the Qantas group and regardless of any incompetence or illegal behaviour they will not be held accountable.
We all (should) enjoy the company's protection so long as we have done nothing wrong. But if these two have acted against the advice/direction of the board then surley all bets must be off.
Sadly Moh, I think you're right.
Will they be sacked?....doubt it.
Will they get to keep their bonuses?....probably.
Will their stellar-like airline careers continue to flourish?.......hmm, that could be an entirely different story.
Last edited by caneworm; 10th Jan 2010 at 01:56. Reason: Punctuation
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Having lived and worked in Vietnam going on a half dozen years now there has been some dramatic changes in my short time here, talking with some 'old timers' here some whom have been since the opening up of the country i can relate to some of the previous posts but the current Vietnam is a lot different. Many international companies are coming to do business as well as individuals western as well as return Vietnamese. Not many people get themselves in trouble, most are very successful here.
Ben Sandilands seems to have his facts wrong in saying that Hanoi wants Jetstar out of Vietnam, JQ/QF are doing a great job making a mess of the situation and getting themselves kicked out. What could have been a great investment has turned very sour. I think all they have to blame for this is themselves.
The Vietnamese government opened up the door for Qantas with their investment into Pacific Airlines, though the JQ/QF managers were implanted into the management structure with a Vietnamese manager above them this was more of a figurehead with the Australians having control of the operation. A very big concession by the government when Qantas only had an 18% stake in the airline (now 27%), a lot was expected from such a large well known carrier to reform what was a very poorly managed airline.
Now the airline is in such poor shape and some senior Australian managers have been caught out doing the wrong thing the government here is starting to realize they have made a mistake in trusting Qantas with their operation and down south Qantas is realizing that the management team they sent up here may not have being doing such a great job. The vocal support given by Alan Joyce to these people in the media i believe is not quite the same as what is being said in private.
Ben Sandilands seems to have his facts wrong in saying that Hanoi wants Jetstar out of Vietnam, JQ/QF are doing a great job making a mess of the situation and getting themselves kicked out. What could have been a great investment has turned very sour. I think all they have to blame for this is themselves.
The Vietnamese government opened up the door for Qantas with their investment into Pacific Airlines, though the JQ/QF managers were implanted into the management structure with a Vietnamese manager above them this was more of a figurehead with the Australians having control of the operation. A very big concession by the government when Qantas only had an 18% stake in the airline (now 27%), a lot was expected from such a large well known carrier to reform what was a very poorly managed airline.
Now the airline is in such poor shape and some senior Australian managers have been caught out doing the wrong thing the government here is starting to realize they have made a mistake in trusting Qantas with their operation and down south Qantas is realizing that the management team they sent up here may not have being doing such a great job. The vocal support given by Alan Joyce to these people in the media i believe is not quite the same as what is being said in private.
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Having lived and worked in Vietnam going on a half dozen years now there has been some dramatic changes in my short time here, talking with some 'old timers' here some whom have been since the opening up of the country i can relate to some of the previous posts but the current Vietnam is a lot different.
A bit off topic, SORRY Mods, but how different is it now, suppose you have things like Maccas even now? Nothing like that when we were there, partly because of the American embargo that was still on.
Prices were unbelievably low (for us) some of the people working with us at Vietnam Airlines had a monthly salary about the same as our daily expense allowance, and they were among the highest paid workers in Vietnam.
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No Macca's yet airsupport but plenty of KFC, Pizza Hut etc. Believe Macca's is on the way this year.
Still cheap to live here by western standards though slowly getting more expensive.
caneworm PM done.
Still cheap to live here by western standards though slowly getting more expensive.
caneworm PM done.
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No Macca's yet airsupport but plenty of KFC, Pizza Hut etc. Believe Macca's is on the way this year.
Still cheap to live here by western standards though slowly getting more expensive.
Still cheap to live here by western standards though slowly getting more expensive.
We would have killed for KFC and Pizza Hut etc when we were there.
Still have very fond memories of Vietnam, particularly the tunnels at Cu Chi, guess you have been there.
Is the American Market still operating in Saigon?
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This story in the Sydney Morning Herald has me puzzled. Maybe its also wrong.
Qantas digs in for battle in Vietnam
If Vietnam wants Jetstar to stay why would they tell it to jack its name, and then drag it into the pits for a roadworthy like the highway coppers do around here when they just don't like you? Looks like any excuse to do Jetstar over will do, not that this doesn't seem like a bad thing to me having done my first and last flight with them a few years ago.
According to the story, Qantas was allowed to increase its interest from 18 to 27% so why was everything rosy then and tits up later? Maybe they don't want them after all. Wonder if Air Asia would put up its hand?
Qantas digs in for battle in Vietnam
If Vietnam wants Jetstar to stay why would they tell it to jack its name, and then drag it into the pits for a roadworthy like the highway coppers do around here when they just don't like you? Looks like any excuse to do Jetstar over will do, not that this doesn't seem like a bad thing to me having done my first and last flight with them a few years ago.
According to the story, Qantas was allowed to increase its interest from 18 to 27% so why was everything rosy then and tits up later? Maybe they don't want them after all. Wonder if Air Asia would put up its hand?
Tailwheel, I'll give you the long version..
If you wish to expand your business into another country, you require complete and absolute control of Two or preferably all Three of the Three ingredients for any successful business.
Those ingredients are
1. People.
2. Capital.
3. Technology and intellectual property.
If you do not have control of Two out of those Three, then you will inevitably by pushed out at some stage.
The companies you mentioned; Shell, KPMG, etc. understand that, the typical Australian company that goes in via a "joint venture" with a local company does not.
This normally means that as soon as you have transferred your technology and intellectual property, trained the locals how to do what you need done and invested heavily in a new plant, the process of pushing you out begins.
By my fathers count, there have been Five times since 1935 when the "Asian Tiger" was thought to be going to make westerners a very great deal of money - based on the "Gee there are Two billion Chinese and if I can make even Ten percent buy my new (toothbrush/scissors/TV) I'll be a billionaire" business strategy. It doesn't work unless the "Two out of Three" requirement is met.
I had a personal friend who bankrupted himself and his private company via an ill advised "joint venture". He eventually committed suicide. I know many others who have had their fingers very badly burned as well.
Having said all that, our family company traded in Asia from 1960 to 2000 very profitably, but we used agents and knew what we were doing.
One has to ask exactly what unique product Jetstar Asia is providing that Asia couldn't provide for themselves cheaper and better?
If you wish to expand your business into another country, you require complete and absolute control of Two or preferably all Three of the Three ingredients for any successful business.
Those ingredients are
1. People.
2. Capital.
3. Technology and intellectual property.
If you do not have control of Two out of those Three, then you will inevitably by pushed out at some stage.
The companies you mentioned; Shell, KPMG, etc. understand that, the typical Australian company that goes in via a "joint venture" with a local company does not.
This normally means that as soon as you have transferred your technology and intellectual property, trained the locals how to do what you need done and invested heavily in a new plant, the process of pushing you out begins.
By my fathers count, there have been Five times since 1935 when the "Asian Tiger" was thought to be going to make westerners a very great deal of money - based on the "Gee there are Two billion Chinese and if I can make even Ten percent buy my new (toothbrush/scissors/TV) I'll be a billionaire" business strategy. It doesn't work unless the "Two out of Three" requirement is met.
I had a personal friend who bankrupted himself and his private company via an ill advised "joint venture". He eventually committed suicide. I know many others who have had their fingers very badly burned as well.
Having said all that, our family company traded in Asia from 1960 to 2000 very profitably, but we used agents and knew what we were doing.
One has to ask exactly what unique product Jetstar Asia is providing that Asia couldn't provide for themselves cheaper and better?
Proverb
This normally means that as soon as you have transferred your technology and intellectual property, trained the locals how to do what you need done and invested heavily in a new plant, the process of pushing you out begins.
Meeting is merely the beginning of separation
what's new?
At least one of these 'executives' has a track record of failure and dubious values. Promoted for all the wrong reasons from day one, it was bound to end badly. The previous QF top brass must have had another agenda in mind when placing said person in Vietnam.
ING ON !! Join Date: Jan 2010
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Just reading the media reports back in Australia and i am surprised how the story has been twisted around (is it the Qantas spin doctors at work?).
How has it become that these two executives have become caught in the middle of a fight between different factions of the Vietnamese government, where is the evidence of this?
The facts are they carried out illegal fuel hedging against the instructions of the board as well as mis managed the airline which has cost the operation tens of millions of dollars.
If a couple of foreign nationals did this in Australia do the think the Australian government would let them leave before an investigation was carried out?
I think the same action would be taken by most other countries as what the Vietnamese have done.
How has it become that these two executives have become caught in the middle of a fight between different factions of the Vietnamese government, where is the evidence of this?
The facts are they carried out illegal fuel hedging against the instructions of the board as well as mis managed the airline which has cost the operation tens of millions of dollars.
If a couple of foreign nationals did this in Australia do the think the Australian government would let them leave before an investigation was carried out?
I think the same action would be taken by most other countries as what the Vietnamese have done.
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Like most people I don't know the full story nor do I know the people involved.
I agree with Owen Stanley that if you do something wrong then you have to expect to be caught up in the legal/political situation in whatever country you have been involved in.
You only have to look at the recent mess with the Garuda Capt to understand that logic has little to do with the justice system of some countries.
Thinking back to a recent event of the cargo price fixing debacle then if hypothetically the execs in Vietnam did anything wrong on instructions from Sydney what would happen?
I agree with Owen Stanley that if you do something wrong then you have to expect to be caught up in the legal/political situation in whatever country you have been involved in.
You only have to look at the recent mess with the Garuda Capt to understand that logic has little to do with the justice system of some countries.
Thinking back to a recent event of the cargo price fixing debacle then if hypothetically the execs in Vietnam did anything wrong on instructions from Sydney what would happen?
Last edited by RedTBar; 11th Jan 2010 at 21:48.
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Would these managers really have continued to hedge when the board instructed them not to . What is the chances they were under orders from head office in SYD to hedge and now its gone south they will cut them lose.
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To quote Loserinsaigon,
"The facts are they carried out illegal fuel hedging against the instructions of the board as well as mis managed the airline which has cost the operation tens of millions of dollars."
And where might i ask did you establish that these were the facts?
You sound like someone who will spend the remainder of his career making coffee after being booted from your last 3 jobs in aviation!
"The facts are they carried out illegal fuel hedging against the instructions of the board as well as mis managed the airline which has cost the operation tens of millions of dollars."
And where might i ask did you establish that these were the facts?
You sound like someone who will spend the remainder of his career making coffee after being booted from your last 3 jobs in aviation!
Last edited by emergencybus; 12th Jan 2010 at 11:31. Reason: typo
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Jetstar Pacific 'violated regulations'
The risks couldn't have been that bad, their still flying. But then again the majority owner is the Vietnamese government.
CAAV deputy director Lai Xuan Thanh said Jetstar Pacific had made numerous mistakes which put flights at risk. According to Vietnam News Agency, he cited faults related to personnel appointments, hangars, equipment, and the licences and certificates of maintenance technicians.
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CAAV deputy director Lai Xuan Thanh said Jetstar Pacific had made numerous mistakes which put flights at risk. According to Vietnam News Agency, he cited faults related to personnel appointments, hangars, equipment, and the licences and certificates of maintenance technicians.
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flyingfox,
I like your style.The 'said' person was certainly sent over there due to the exact reasons you quoted.That is a true fact.The 'said' Manager, like so many other ambitious and hungry footstools from the past was willing to take those risks to prove their worthiness to join the upper echelon's of the Rat's gravy train, but alas, has failed 'the test'. Career over. Next.
Toruct Makto,
You also are spot on. Smart Senior Managers always put in a 'line of defence' between themselves and the 'dirty deal'. In this case, it was 'said' Manager who was that line of defence. If and when the deal goes south, and it did, their is a fall guy (or girl) to wear the blame.The CEO of 'said' airline who put these managers over there in the first place will be grinning knowing that his or her tenure atop of the Rat's tree is safe still because a 'lamb has been sacrificed'. Just look back at a particularly interesting cargo scandal last year and you will see where another 'line of defence' was sacrificied in the same manner.
The CEO in that case now lives a life of luxury upon the proceeds and spoils gained by keeping ones hands cleans while others are paid rather well to wear the risks of undertaking 'suspect practises' and be willing to be the 'fall guy'.It is certainly not a new method of Management, ask anyone who has worked in the 'higher circles'.
Owen Stanley,
You know your politicians well indeed.I couldnt agree more with yourself and M.Latham, they are truly A Conga Line Of Suckholes. Amazing how Politicians and CEO's operate under the same rule set and always have an underling who will take the bullet for them. How touching !
727ace,
Oh my, aren't you naughty !! I agree with you, and have been personally waiting a LONG time to see justice served on 'said' Manager over in Nam. As they say -'you live by the sword, you die by the sword'. Karma. As for feeling sorry for 'said' individual ? Reap it.......
At least one of these 'executives' has a track record of failure and dubious values. Promoted for all the wrong reasons from day one, it was bound to end badly.The previous QF top brass must have had another agenda in mind when placing said person in Vietnam.
Toruct Makto,
Would these managers really have continued to hedge when the board instructed them not to.What is the chances they were under orders from head office in SYD to hedge and now its gone south they will cut them lose.
The CEO in that case now lives a life of luxury upon the proceeds and spoils gained by keeping ones hands cleans while others are paid rather well to wear the risks of undertaking 'suspect practises' and be willing to be the 'fall guy'.It is certainly not a new method of Management, ask anyone who has worked in the 'higher circles'.
Owen Stanley,
I doubt any Australian Government would have the balls (A Conga Line of Suckholes) to enforce any sort of action like this. Maybe if the threat of some serious 'big house' time was there we wouldn't see so many morally bereft business people in this country.
727ace,
Well it looks like time has caught up with DM --bad karma always gets its person---
you shaft others then you be shafted in time
you shaft others then you be shafted in time
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Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire...
Safety at Jetstar Pacific slammed - Sydney Morning Herald
TOM ALLARD AND MATT O'SULLIVAN
January 14, 2010
SAFETY practices at Jetstar Pacific Airlines, the Vietnamese carrier part-owned by Qantas, have been found to be ''very poor and ineffective'' and defects hidden from supervisors, prompting the country's aviation regulator to demand senior management be removed.
The damning report by the Civil Aviation Authority of Vietnam, obtained by the Herald, also found Jetstar Pacific illegally sacked an Australian engineer - Bernard McCune - who tried to bring the problems to the attention of the airline's senior Australian managers.
Among the dangerous practices identified by the authority was the removal of a defective anti-icing pipe that, rather than being replaced, was welded and placed back in the aircraft by an unauthorised contractor.
''Technical staff did not report [this] occurrence on purpose,'' the report found, following an audit conducted in October.
Moreover, ''many mistakes and violations were covered up deliberately by JPA [Jetstar Pacific Airlines] from the supervision''.
The authority added: ''Technical staffs record incorrectly the size of defects and twisting the fact of defect level.''
Amid deep cost-cutting at the airline, it concluded that there were not enough maintenance personnel and that the maintenance facilities were substandard.
The airline regulator laid the blame for the shortcomings squarely on the company's senior management. The ''quality assurance system operated very poorly and ineffectively, therefore [there have] been many violations occurred within the maintenance process. Managerial staff was actual causes and fully responsible for this system error.''
Jetstar Pacific was ordered to remove the airline's general director, Luong Hoai Nam, a Bulgarian technical quality manager, Atanas Stankov, and the Australian maintenance manager, David Andrew, from their posts.
Mr Nam is under arrest after resigning in November, while a Qantas spokesman, David Epstein, said yesterday that Mr Stankov was shifted from his position on December 25 and would formally leave the company next month. He said Mr Andrew was demoted on the same day for not properly reporting work practices, but only for three months.
The fate of Mr McCune and another engineer - Digger King, a New Zealander - who blew the whistle on the maintenance woes and lost their jobs remains unclear. Qantas has not offered to re-employ them or issued any kind of apology.
Mr McCune was sacked illegally, the report found. It added there was no evidence of wrongdoing to justify the terminations of either Mr McCune or Mr King.
Jetstar Pacific noted it was still able to fly its aircraft, saying the report ''focused on administrative and employment matters''.
''Jetstar Pacific remains confident of its engineering and safety record, and continues to work closely with the CAAV,'' it said.
TOM ALLARD AND MATT O'SULLIVAN
January 14, 2010
SAFETY practices at Jetstar Pacific Airlines, the Vietnamese carrier part-owned by Qantas, have been found to be ''very poor and ineffective'' and defects hidden from supervisors, prompting the country's aviation regulator to demand senior management be removed.
The damning report by the Civil Aviation Authority of Vietnam, obtained by the Herald, also found Jetstar Pacific illegally sacked an Australian engineer - Bernard McCune - who tried to bring the problems to the attention of the airline's senior Australian managers.
Among the dangerous practices identified by the authority was the removal of a defective anti-icing pipe that, rather than being replaced, was welded and placed back in the aircraft by an unauthorised contractor.
''Technical staff did not report [this] occurrence on purpose,'' the report found, following an audit conducted in October.
Moreover, ''many mistakes and violations were covered up deliberately by JPA [Jetstar Pacific Airlines] from the supervision''.
The authority added: ''Technical staffs record incorrectly the size of defects and twisting the fact of defect level.''
Amid deep cost-cutting at the airline, it concluded that there were not enough maintenance personnel and that the maintenance facilities were substandard.
The airline regulator laid the blame for the shortcomings squarely on the company's senior management. The ''quality assurance system operated very poorly and ineffectively, therefore [there have] been many violations occurred within the maintenance process. Managerial staff was actual causes and fully responsible for this system error.''
Jetstar Pacific was ordered to remove the airline's general director, Luong Hoai Nam, a Bulgarian technical quality manager, Atanas Stankov, and the Australian maintenance manager, David Andrew, from their posts.
Mr Nam is under arrest after resigning in November, while a Qantas spokesman, David Epstein, said yesterday that Mr Stankov was shifted from his position on December 25 and would formally leave the company next month. He said Mr Andrew was demoted on the same day for not properly reporting work practices, but only for three months.
The fate of Mr McCune and another engineer - Digger King, a New Zealander - who blew the whistle on the maintenance woes and lost their jobs remains unclear. Qantas has not offered to re-employ them or issued any kind of apology.
Mr McCune was sacked illegally, the report found. It added there was no evidence of wrongdoing to justify the terminations of either Mr McCune or Mr King.
Jetstar Pacific noted it was still able to fly its aircraft, saying the report ''focused on administrative and employment matters''.
''Jetstar Pacific remains confident of its engineering and safety record, and continues to work closely with the CAAV,'' it said.